Klipsch Knockoffs - Shinall..Have You Seen These?

[jt1stcav]

Hmmm, I wonder if Mr. Shinall would offer plans for those who'd like to build copies of his loudspeakers?

[James RD]

I wish the man luck. There's plenty of room in this world for one-man speaker shops.

[chops]

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On 4/22/2004 9:11:27 PM mark1101 wrote:

Good comment. The Heritage series ARE somewhat like what Harley Davidson has created. A fine and adequate product all on its own. However, it is also a platform that lends itself to modification and personalization.

The cool part of the Heritage series is having the authenticity and originality as a starting point.

For me, stock has always been fine. I have enjoyed all of the authentic pairs of Heritage speakers I have owned over the years, and the unknown history but assured enjoyment each pair has brought to me as a successive owner.

Mr. Shinall sounds like a talented craftsman who can deliver an authentic clone that represents a huge $$ savings for a nice appearance. However, the lack of PWK authenticity may play a role to some who might rather have an older pair and a piece of history.

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The same thing goes for Harley Davidson "cloning". Look at what Yamaha and Kawasaki is doing. They both have bikes that look and sound just like Harleys, and for less. I don't hear of anybody or Harley Davidson making a big-to-do about that.

[Deang]

You can also add John Browning's 1911 to the list.

[J.4knee]

I contacted Mr. Shinall via e-mail and he listed his drivers and a brief description of his crossover although nothing technical in detail. Here is what he sent me:

Jim,

I use a University T-35 tweeter (old EV T-35), University compression driver in the mid-range, Eminence 15" woofer.

I use custom made transformers, chokes and etc.to fabricate the x-overs.

See the attached pictures.

Thanks for your interest,

Gary Shinall

As you can see from HDBR's post this guy does not appear to be running a Klipsch killer ring, he seems to be open about what he does so hey maybe this is the odd case where he can fill a niche market. I dont know the man, but I offered him an apology since I initially did not offer a favorable light to his operation. I still believe the original Klipsch product is the best, but for those who want a new K-horn like speaker and cant afford $7000 maybe this one-man operation can fill their need. He never sent the pictures but I think at least at this point it was an oversight. Time will tell I guess.

[Audible Nectar]

The Harley Davidson/Klipsch comparison is certainly a point well taken - as I often make similar comparisons with McIntosh as well (it's all about the chrome ). McIntosh and Klipsch make a wonderful "classic" system - kinda like ridin' a fatboy

It is also true that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and with the increase in interest in the Heritage klipsch, the new "copies" aren't really a surprise. I also think that it is good to have more "players" in the horn arena - big or small - that's good for everyone.

So I have no beef with Gary Shinall making these - we just want to know MORE!!!! Could you imagine 15 or so of us in a room looking at one of these for the first time????? It would be like "Home Improvement" - we would just rewire it

I was just curious why the "secrecy" on the part of our Shinall owner. Naturally we are interested. In our world, this is bigger news than Monica Lewinsky

[3dzapper]

"The same thing goes for Harley Davidson "cloning". Look at what Yamaha and Kawasaki is doing. They both have bikes that look and sound just like Harleys, and for less. I don't hear of anybody or Harley Davidson making a big-to-do about that."

One thing the Harley clones have never reproduced is the "SOUND". Without it they ain't nuthin but copies.

Rick

[HDBRbuilder]

I hate to burst any Harley balloons here, but Harley didn't invent that SOUND, either! That sound is due to the included angle of the cylinders in relation to the crankshaft which has two connecting rods "knife and forked" onto the SAME crankpin in order to produce a narrow engine. Combine that fatal engineering with the long stroke resulting in very high piston speed and the attendant spalling of the rollers or balls in the bottom-end bearings from the "slam" down there on the down-strokes, and it cuts in half the life of the bottom-end of the engine! It doesn't matter how much larger one makes the bottom end bearings or the crank diameter. it is still gonna break too soon! Hardly anything NOT done before Harley came along with THEIR V-twin engine! They were not the first nor will they be the last to build an inherently out-of-balance V-twin engine prone to shaking itself apart! The Harley Logo police in league with their corporate lawyers TRIED in vain to patent that "SOUND" after Honda came out with its "ACE" Shadow version which copied that "SOUND" by messing-up a perfectly good V-twin by using the same out of balance technology Harley uses in its engine. But, since Harley did not invent this nonsense to begin with, they failed miserably in their patent attempt on the "sound". Don't get me wrong, I think Harleys are beautiful motorcycles, but I prefer to ride something world-renowned for reliability and longetivity. Harley a few years back made a big deal about ONE of its evolution-engined bikes making it to the 100,000 mile mark without a major rebuild, and promptly traded a new bike to the owner so that they could proudly put it in their museum after tearing it apart to see how it survived so long. Funny thing is, I regularly see NUMEROUS riders at BMW motorcycle rallies all over the country that have well over 100,000 miles on THEIR bikes with no major rebuild involved. Some have well over 300,000 HARD RIDING miles on them! I have no idea how many miles SHE has on her 1995 BMW oil-head twin now, but about four years ago, Vonnie Glaves hit 400,000 miles on hers...and she is still riding it, and at 400,000 miles it had not had anything other than regular services and tire changes done to it by her husband! I like my balanced engine...hard to beat an old airhead Beemer twin for reliability and longetivity! Smooth, fast, comfortable, and reliable, that is what I look for in two wheels! Great in the twisties at speed, too! No sound from the engine's exhaust ever got me from coast to coast, the reliability did! Loud pipes DON'T save lives, but maybe loud SHIRTS might do it! BTW...if you have a flat on a bike with no center stand, how the heck do you change the flat out in the middle of nowhere? Go figure! But what the hello do I know? I not only wear protection over my entire body, but I also wear a helmet! I don't see how leather everywhere on a body with just a rag on the head will do much good, if the only cells in your body that don't and can't reproduce from damage are the brain cells! Sure, I love the wind in my hair, but I also like to stay alive! If I am to eventually become a "vegetable", then I prefer to have it come from old age instead of an accident. Just MHO.

(this outta stir up some controversy!!)

As for Jonathan M. Browning's model 1911, THAT is a MUCH BETTER subject for the analogy in this thread. Take an automatic handgun that has fair accuracy in its standard format as military issue when new, and turn it into the best and most-used large-bore competition handgun by tweaking...or compare just how many direct clones AND others BASED on that same basic design are out there and HAVE BEEN out there, and you have a great analogy! BTW, anybody know when that handgun first proved its worth in combat for our troops? It was in France in WWI...a small horse cavalry patrol came upon a point on a road where German machine guns had the road covered with a cross-fire. The U.S. cavalry patrol, startled by the ambush, had no choice but to charge the machine gun emplacements, their brace of 1911's blazing from each cavalryman. They destroyed the enemy completely at close range with almost no damage to themselves. True story! For a young man from Salt Lake City, John Browning became the most prolific designer of SUCCESSFUL gun designs in the history of the world. You can count the following as SOME of his successful designs, although he designed much more than just these. The Winchester model 92 lever-action rifle, the Winchester model 94 lever action rifle, the Winchester model 95 lever action rifle, the Browning model 1911 handgun, The model 1935 handgun(called the Browning High-power), the model 12 Winchester shotgun, the U.S. .50 cal machine gun, the Browning model 1917/1919 U.S. machine gun series, the BAR, the A-5 automatic shotgun...the list goes on and on!! Even the Colt "potato-digger" machine gun taken to the Spanish-American war was one of his designs! With the exception of the standard infantry rifles, the revolver, and the M-1/M-2 carbine, and the submachine guns, EVERY SMALL ARM used in WWII by our forces as a STANDARD issue was a Browning design, including the standard-issue shotgun!! Even the Axis forces were heavily-armed with Browning designs in handguns, since his .32 auto and .380 auto designs had been so popular throughout Europe for so many years between the wars! There are lots of those around with Waffenamt markings on them from wartime and pre-war Belgian production!

[middlecreekguy]

Yeah, I think that historian idea was right on the mark.

[M6 Driver]

Well maybe someone should put a bug in his ear to make an Acadamy type speaker.

[mark1101]

Andy,

I have a 2001 Kawasaki ZRX 1200. Before that I had a 1981 KZ-1000 and kept it for 20 years. Before that I had a 1973 Harley Sportster. It eventually shook itself apart as you mentioned, and I was just a kid and couldn't afford to fix it right way back then. Once I got into the Kaws, I became content.

However, now, I wouldn't mind one of them vibrating hogs at all.

[Deang]

I would call it, "The Mind of Andy Barr".

He could cover a lot of ground with that. He could have a chapter on each thing he finds interesting to talk about, and I think it would be a damn good read.

Deb and myself could proof it, and the Parrot would edit. It would come hardbound, Smyth sewn, with a cloth cover treated to look like it was a hundred years old.

Something from Tommy Brennen would be cool too. How about a Civil War book, with alternating chapters from Andy and Tom about Civil War battles. Kind of like a debate/analysis of the great battles.

How about a book from me? "How to bring your Internet Forum back to Life".

[chops]

Just wondering..... Who was the first to come out with that V-twin sound? Indian?

[HDBRbuilder]

His top-of-the-line model IS a K-horn clone in its bass bin...the acoustic suspension model is his middle model.

[HDBRbuilder]

The Brits were ahead of us in two-wheeled transportation development. James A. Prestwick was one of the earlier V-twin engine-builders, and eventually developed quite a following for his engines as proprietary units for use in motorcycles THROUGHOUT Europe. Brough Superior was one of the better known users of his engines...with the inherent "JAP" cast into the sides of the bottom-end, but even HE didn't invent them.

The advent of the mass-produced Ford Model "T" stifled our two-wheeled transportation development in this country because one could buy an automobile for the same or less than a motorcycle with sidecar would cost for a young family in need of non-horse-drawn transportation.

One interesting thing is that for its SHORT time in the HD line-up, the HD Sport twin of around 1917 was the most dependable motorcycle they had, very trouble-free compared to the other models in the line...and it was famous for setting BOTH a new coast-to-coast record AND a track endurance record for HD; BUT it was considered by many folks of its day to be "underpowered" (even though its V-twin brethren in the HD line-up were incapable of setting those same records) and it didn't sell well, so it was dropped from the line after just a handful of years. Even at the time of WWI, the American attitude was "bigger is better". Why is that interesting? Because it was a FLAT TWIN, with its cylinders running fore and aft "a la" the British Douglas model of that time...the same engine cylinder lay-out that BMW began making after the WWI Treaty of Versailles almost completely shut them down as a speed and altitude record-setting engine builder for military AIRCRAFT.

Automobiles are NOT what made BMW famous around the world, high-quality RELIABLE motorcycles and aircraft engine designs did that! Most of you likely don't know it but if you fly on commercial jet transportation, the engines keeping you in the air are likely a BMW product again today. The BMW jet engine designs being built, undergoing development and/or still on the drawing board at the end of the WWII were ALL grabbed up by Rolls Royce and further developed by them for aircraft, which kept Rolls alive as the "jet age" entered the scene, rendering their famous reciprocating aircraft engine designs obsolete after the war.

Turn about is fair play, so when Rolls Royce aviation went up on the auction block a number of years back, BMW grabbed it up. Funny thing is, when VW bought up Rolls Royce and Bentley automobiles a few years back, by just barely overbidding BMW on the deal, they found out to their dismay that the NAME of Rolls Royce was OWNED by BMW, because it originally belonged to the aircraft division...and had been on "loan" to the automobile division after the two divisions split years ago...for as long as the automobile company remained British-owned!

Rolls and Bentley have been using BMW engines for a number of years (with General Motors automatic transmissions). When the CEO of VW found out about the name ownership, a deal was swung between him and the CEO of BMW. Volkswagen gets to keep Rolls for a short time, and Bentley is theirs for good, with Rolls eventually going to BMW...and BMW guaranteed delivery of their best automobile engines for both cars as long as VW wants them...while not demanding any monetary gain from the temporary use of the name by VW. Another example of golf-course business deals!

[Daddy Dee]

On Audiogon, some months ago there was an audio shop in Atlanta with a Shinall "laScala" listed. I am sorry to see that it's not displayed on the Shinall web page because it is one fine looking speaker. It is "Belle" like in it's appearance with that distinctive Klipshorn HF section. Quite an interesting association between Mr. Shinall and PWK.

Out of the Shinall linup, the corner horn would seem to be the winner in bang for the buck.

[J.4knee]

Here is one of the KKS-1 pictures Gary Shinalll sent me.

[mbajner]

Gary Shinall sent me the same pic

at least we can now see a little bit of the board

[mbajner]

the build quality looks good on these

here are the pics for easy viewing

[mbajner]

Here is a pic of the speaker from Shinall that I am really interested in, the only problem is that he stopped making them in the late 80's