JJJeffries Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Hello Fellow and lady Posters: When I played in the band (still do in a jazz octet) I played a Bach brass trombone. Having friends in pipe organ building my question is would brass horns be an advantage or disadvantage in the KHorns? If nothing else, they sure would look spectacular. Any and all thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. My PO building friends could cast the horns for me. Best, Craig Broadcast standard equipment. Too numerous to mention! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 They would be stunning, due to the thickness required they would be heavy and with the amount of brass involved somewhat pricey as well I would think. They would also be prone to ringing at high volume levels so you would have to damp them with some sound deadening material. Much cheaper to call Klipsch and order the new composite K-401 horn for $50. You would have to remove the grill cloth on your Khorn's so that they would even be viewable, not to mention the fact that you would have to continually polish them so they would maintain their lustre. You must have alot of time on your hands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 ---------------- On 5/5/2004 1:09:21 PM JJJeffries wrote: Hello Fellow and lady Posters: When I played in the band (still do in a jazz octet) I played a Bach brass trombone. Having friends in pipe organ building my question is would brass horns be an advantage or disadvantage in the KHorns? If nothing else, they sure would look spectacular. Any and all thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. My PO building friends could cast the horns for me. Best, Craig Broadcast standard equipment. Too numerous to mention! ---------------- as a brass player also (trumpet), i think brass horns for speakers would be a disadvantage..... when you are perfroming with a brass instrument, you want the bell to vibrate to provide a better feel and better response to your input.... on a horn speaker, you want just the opposite.... the horn should be very stiff and not respond to vibrations.... it should send the waveform out into the room and not be part of the sound itself like a brass instrument is.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 For speakers, the name of the game is NO VIBRATION of the horn walls. Metal horns of any size tend to vibrate sympathetically even when the walls are quite thick. Vibrations of the horn walls cause colorations in the resultant sound and/or result in what is known as "ringing", where the frequencies tend to match up with the sympathetic vibration response of the horn walls somewhat like a metal bell vibrating. Also brass would tarnish and require maintenence like regular polishing if desired. For use in loud speakers, I would say wood, plastic, or composite horns are the way to go... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Craig, for kicks, I would have your friend cast a set, and mount them to a pedastal stand on the top of your speakers. You can run a pigtail down to the crossover whenever you want to use them - it would be a kick! They would sound a little different, but WTH. By the way, if you don't already have a few recordings, check out the Canadian Brass CDs. They sound awesome on Klipsch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Hey....I used to play a trombone too thoughout highschool & college! A Conn 88H with F trigger and large bore. Man I miss that horn. Can't believe I got a case of the duma** and sold it in order to pay for an airline ticket to visit some chick I thought I couldn't live without. Sheesh...we men really do think with our _____. Anyhow...your idea sounds intriguing, but I'm with the rest here. I think it would be very difficult to control the ringing. Is your intent the use of brass in and of itself or just the looks of brass or both? If looks is your thing, maybe brass plating?? Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 A brass K-400 would still be a K-400. Brass has a different density and stiffness compared to Aluminum, so the results would be hard to predict. However, It can't hurt to try. If it's a bust, your bud can recast it into something like a bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 They'd look nice. It is true that musical instruments and acoustic horns work on the same principles, but they are designed differently. Bruce Edgar, in one of his SpeakerBuilder articles, pointed out that musical instrument horns have relatively small mouths, the big end. This allows the trapped column of air to resonate because of mouth reflections. For instuments this is good because it allows them to play a given note. OTOH, acoustic horns must have big mouths so that there are not reflections, and all notes are reproduced with uniformity. The bottom line is that the dimensions of either are the key to their performance. There may be issues of material. Musical instruments have unique overtones because the walls may flex. In acoustic horns we don't want that at all. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJJeffries Posted May 5, 2004 Author Share Posted May 5, 2004 Hello Fellow Posters: The reason I first posted the brass question was twofold. Playing a trombone...HORN...in the theatre pipe organ world Wurlitzer introduced two very unique stops...BRASS TRUMPET AND BRASS SAXOPHONE. I asked one of my pipe building firm friends about the horns in the KHorn. They said it would work. I was the one who posed the question. Best to ask the source. Shame I never asked Father Paul Klipsch about it. I did note playing the trombone and once in a while the bari-sax. We chatted about the Wurlitzer Brass Trumpet and Brass Sax. I am going to ask my buddy in Boston about doing the short horn and the big horn for both of my KHorns. I figure it will run me between $200-500 . If more just create them for me. The poster who said you must have a lot of free time. LOL! I don't my brain is running 24/7 and being a broadcaster and doing voiceovers I have more time to dream and plan than I suppose most of you do. I put in 38 years in fulltime radio and did my 60-80 hour weeks for years. Guess that's why my retirement funds are well over $3m. At 60 I have no plans on slowing down. I am a partner in a new Jazz FM chain that is buying 20 stations in key markets. We plan on firing them up all at once in June 05. I have and still do work smart...am an honest person and look for the best in the worst person. I have the Dr. Robert Schuller Positive Thinking outlook on life. So, brass horns for my KHorns...why not. Maybe, I should have just done it and then posted the pictures on this site. What's the old saying: I would rather attempt great things in life and fail...than to sit back do nothing and succeed. LOL! Best, Craig Standard broadcast equipment. Too numerous to mention! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Having been in the pipe organ building business for many years as a youth, this question is very interesting to me on several levels. I'm unaware of any organ builders that have brass foundry capabilities. Our firm (one of the largest and oldest) cast sheets of tin/lead alloy, but we outsourced sheet zinc and sheet brass. Sheet stock was formed over wooden mandrels and soldered or brazed in order to make organ pipes. Now, I have seen sheet metal audio horns which were soldered together. But they were of double thickness and filled with hot pitch to damp them from resonances. Somewhere in storage, I have an old Altec/Lansing multi-cell theatre horn made this way. It wasn't bad at all. My son used it a while with a 15" Jensen bass reflex woofer and a Klipsch tweeter and crossover with the other chanel being a '55 K-Horn. Not shabby. I agree with other posters --a cast brass audio horn would be interesting from a cosmetic point of view, but a disaster as an audio horn unless seriously damped. DR BILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJJeffries Posted May 7, 2004 Author Share Posted May 7, 2004 Dr. Bill: I am the person who posed this question. Anyone who knows theatre pipe organs are well aware of the famous Brass pipes that the Wurlitzer Pipe Organ Company created. The Brass Trumpet and Brass Saxophone were installed in their larger instruments. There are sites that show those beautiful pipes. I contacted my source yesterday and he is going to do two short horns and two long horns for my KHorns. He is doing it for free as if all goes according to plan, I will be selling the horns for him. There will be several tests done for texture...strength and tonality and if it comes out like he and I both believe we might just have something. Will keep you posted on the progress. He hopes to have the test horns finished by June and finished horns by August. Best, Craig IF YOUR ORGAN DOESN'T HAVE PIPES, IT'S NOT AN ORGAN! LOL! Broadcast standard equipment. Too numerous to mention! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I would be the first to admit that the Theatre Organ is not one of my specialties (fan that I am of my recordings)! I worked with Larry Phelps at Casavant in the '60's when the N. German Revival was taking hold and that was a world away. I stand to be corrected, but I recall that the Wurlitzer Post Horn/Trumpet/Sax pipes were sheet brass with a spun brass bell. Interestingly, Earnest Skinner, G. Donald Harrison and Henry Willis got far better results using standard pipe materials! So, it might not have been the brass at all. But, like you, I can't wait to find out what your experiment reveals. Keep us up to speed. DR BILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I would love to find an organ donor! Actually, where does one learn about pipe organ construction, short of going to a company that makes them? I have a wooden pipe from an organ, as a piece of decor, in my living room. How are the sizes calculated for the different pitches? Is there anything on the web that explains any of what I am asking. There are folks here who have done repair, or had family members who did. I know the answer is out there somewhere, but most just tell me to pipe down! Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benesesso Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 If you want the brass color to be a bit different, ask your friend to cast the horns from a brass alloy with 15% max. Zn. The color will be closer to 24k gold (redder than the usual 40% Zn yellow brass color). Polish them good and then use clear spray lacquer to keep them looking good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Marvel, go to www.ohscatalog.org (Organ Historical Society). There are numerous books available on organ design and construction, plus thousands of classical/theatre organ CDs and videos, and sheet music. There's a two-volume softbound set called, "The Art of Organ-Building" by George Ashdown Audsley, $48. Also "The Organ Handbook" by Hans Klotz, $17. And "The Contemporary American Organ" by William H. Barnes, $22. Also check out this website: http://mmd.foxtail.com/Tech/pipesRecipe.html I haven't had the chance to read it yet, but it may give you a glimpse into organ pipe scales and dimensions regarding pitch and tone. I wish I could answer your question directly, but I'm not a pipe organ technician, just a lover of the instruments and its music. My dad (once employed with the now-defunkt Lakeland firm Klug & Schumaker, Inc., and now employed with the CT servicing firm Foley-Baker, Inc.) would know the answer...he built the 16' bottom octave extention (12 pipes) for the 8' Oboe rank in his residence pipe organ. The new 16' Contra Bassoon (with half-length wooden resonators) blends perfectly with the 8' Hautbois; you'd never know the bottom 12 notes weren't originals! That's all part of knowing the rank's correct scaling and dimensions...it's amazing, really. Craig, good luck with your brass Klipschorns! Definately post pictures...this I have to see! Who knows...once they're dampened enough and polished thoroughly, they just might work out better than we'd expect! WurliTzer's brass sax has always been an elegant (and extremely loud) rank of pipes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Jim, Thanks for the info on the organ materials. Not like I need anything else to learn, but I am more than intrigued. I've copied this info out and files it away. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 No problem. I know you can definately appreciate the craftsmanship involved in the design and construction of these instruments...especially since your avatar clearly shows a finely crafted guitar from Taylor (or is it a Gibson or a Martin?) By the way, I'm intrigued...do you know what kind of pipe you have on display in your living room? Is it stoppered on top or is it open? Is it from an 8' or 4' rank? From what organ manufacturer made it, and about how old is it? Can't you tell I'm curious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Marvel, not everyone has an organ pipe displayed in their living rooms...Even less have a entire garage turned organ chamber full of pipes in their homes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJJeffries Posted May 11, 2004 Author Share Posted May 11, 2004 Hello Fellow Posters: UPS delivered to me this PM one 8' Brass Trumpet from a 61 note rank of Wurlitzer Brass Trumpets from my friends pipe shop. The note in the wooden crate said and I quote "the horns I will be creating for you will be exact copies of the horns in the KHorn and will be made in the same manner as Wurlitzer created in their North Tonawanda plant in the 1920s and 1930s." I read with interest the posting you created on the Klipsch forum under the heading Brass Horns and in my 35 years as a builder of fine pipe organs I know what it takes to create fine pipework and the doubters will always be out there. Craig, you will have the finest horns available and cast in brass. Fellow theatre pipe organ associates concur the horns WILL work and sound warm and precise. Will post more hopefully sooner than later. My friend who will be doing this work has asked me to keep his name quiet as he doesn't want the phone ringing off the hook or uninvited persons at his shop. I can appreciate his honestly with me. More later! Best, Craig Standard broadcast equipment. Too numerous to mention! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 I tell you, nothing sounds better to me than Klipsch playing brass instruments. I play trumpet, a classic silver Bach Strad and a Schilke. I think something like a carbon composite horn would be fantastic, no vibration of the material at all. I would like to hear a A/B test of the horns original/brass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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