RAPTORMAN Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I have decided to go for the HARMAN KARDON CITATION II from our local dealer. As suggested by the knowlegable folks at this forum I should go for the MODS that is being offered by an expert technician for this amp named: JIM MCSHANE. For the last couple of days I have been in contact with him thru email. Here is a copy of his last email in regards to the MODIFICATION of the HK CIT II--Is the price range realistic for what he is offering to do????????? Experts help!! Here's typically what a Cit II needs to make it sing: 1. The power supply kits stuff, as you noted 2. New coupling and small value cap kits 3. New RCA input jacks 4. New AC balance pots (most grind and creak for sure!) 5. A new 3 wire line cord 6. Some resistors will have drifted out of tolerance and need replacing 7. About 50% of the amps need new octal sockets, the others need the sockets retensioned. BTW, the nine pin sockets are usually just in need of cleaning. 8. Tubes! I know that seems like a lot, but remember those amps are 40+ years old and ran hot inside. And they are worth the investment! The problem with me doing it is there's a waiting list of about 6 months right now. But if you don't mind the wait, I will get your amp singing! A typical rework including KT-90 output tubes and new 12BY7As is somewhere between $850 and $1050 plus return shipping. I can't tell exactly until I have the unit on the bench. And once it's done, it's ready to give another MANY years of great service to the lucky owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAPTORMAN Posted May 26, 2004 Author Share Posted May 26, 2004 BUMP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Raptor, the rebuild experts probably don't want to comment out of professional courtesy. They usually will comment on quality, but pricing...especially on an item that is out of their main niche. You can hit EBay and Audiogon to calculate the tube prices. As far as his total charge, ask him to give you three client references, and examples of resale values of three amps he has recently completed at the same level of rebuild you are considering. At this price level, hopefully your amp is in great cosmetic shape so your resale will not be limited by looks. If you think you can get within a couple hundred $$ of what you have in it when you might sell it, go for it. I'd limit any financial exposure to that which you can lose without talking 'bout it for ten years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Craig is out of town until this weekend, I'm sure this is why he hasn't popped in. Based on what I know about what Craig does with the Mark IIIs, the price seems a bit high. Craig charges about the same to do a pair of monoblocks, at least, that's what I think -- I could be wrong. The biggest advantage to having Craig do the work however -- is not having to wait six months to get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 You can just send Jim, the power supply board and he'll rebuilt it for you. You can also buy the parts kit and send it to your tech for a total rebuild. I recommend testing the tubes before you go and buy new ones. If you do plan to put so much money into rebuilding the unit, I should consider buying an average unit and not this Mint example, in order to keep the total costs down. If you do decide to modify a mint example - it will decrease its value for collectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I suggest you LISTEN to the amp in your system for an extended period of time before you consider putting one thin red cent into it. Maybe you will love it "as found." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAPTORMAN Posted May 26, 2004 Author Share Posted May 26, 2004 Is Craig the Gentleman from NOSValves.com--(From Burton Michigan)???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 ---------------- On 5/26/2004 11:01:07 AM Allan Songer wrote: I suggest you LISTEN to the amp in your system for an extended period of time before you consider putting one thin red cent into it. Maybe you will love it "as found." ---------------- Good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 Raptorman, I do not know what kind of speakers you have, but if these are KHorns you will love this amp! As for the mods, I did all of these myself and I would categorize them in 2 groups: 1) Those you must carry out just for your peace of mind, like replacing these selenium rectifiers or paper caps and 2) Those which demonstrably transform the Cit II into a killer amp, like using fresh 12BY7A's (matched in V1,V4), KT90's wired in triode mode and enhancing the capacitance both in the PS and the decoupling of the small tubes. Other mods are, IMHO, the icing in a very nice cake... Any tech can do the job, if you can't wait for Jim... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Choi Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 A word of caution for potential Cit II + Khorns users: As a owner of three Cit IIs, there's an unavoidable problem of low level hum with driving highly sensitive Khorns with Citation II amp. A friend of mine also tried McShane's mods and SDS power supply upgrades, etc. to lower the hum level but could not eliminate the hum completely. I have learned to live with the hum considering the stellar performance from the amp and by sitting ~18' away from the Khorns. On the other hand, the lowly Heathkit W-5Ms are dead silent but lacks the lively dynamics of Cit II to my ears. Ki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Ki, if I make it out to Washington this fall for work, I'll give you a ring. I had a pair of Quicksilvers that were wonderful, but they were mated with an AES preamp, and I was driven to distraction by the low level tube rush attributed to the AES. I now run a McIntosh MC240 with Mark Deneen's Blueberry preamp, a Dynaco ST70 y'ed from the Blueberry main outputs, and a seperate Scott 299C, and all three are dead quiet on line outs. In order to get any noticable background noise with the Blueberry with no music input, I have to hook up my Crown Power Line 4 and max the volume on the amp and preamp for any of the four line sources! The phono does have a slight audible noise past about 11 o:clock, past the point where I have ever ventured with a turntable. I love silence with tube equipment, so I'm glad I haven't picked up one of the Citations. It's a little quibble, but one I want to live without on an expensive piece of equipment. It would probably be a welcomed and endearing trait for a little tube clock radio, but not the main tube amp in a flagship stereo setup for me. What are a few of your favorites in the listening stack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Choi Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Dave: You are welcome to visit my home whenever you are in Seattle area. I have had problem of jumping on the latest audio bandwagon too often and have accumulated my share of audio toys over last thirty so years. However there are few that I would consider "keeper" and sits in my rack. For the front-end, I am using the Sony SCD-1 that tought me patience. I have to take coffee (Seattle's Best) breakes while waiting for it to load new CDs...but I can not imagine how one can improve upon SCD-1's Red Book CD play back peformance especially in its mechanical design - it's the best, IMO. I use Bel Canto Pre-1 as preamp when I play SACDs but do like playing CDs (most of the time) on the SCD-1 as a transport feeding the old Meridian 518 as remote contolled digial attenuator and using Bel Canto DAC2 driving the power amps directly. I like the setup's simplicity with minimal active components in the chain and it's glorious sound. Before discovering W5-Ms and Cit IIs, I used Bel Canto SET-40 (35w/ch SET) mostly. I was demoing my old ESL-63s using the SET-40 to a local guy about a month ago. The sound was so good, I almost kept the ESL-63s but let them go. So I like W5-Ms for the Khorns and Cit IIs are bridged for my other system based on Sound Lab A-1 electrostatic speaker setup. Ki 206-409-3972 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Ki, Supposing that everything is wired correctly, AC balance set and no earth loops in the system the HK should not hum at all. Maybe yours is humming because of potential AC problems. In that case, an isolation transformer might do the trick... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Alex, You've got mail! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 I have another suggestion: Talk to Terry DeWick (www.mcintoshaudio.com) about the Citation II and possible updates. He repairs/updates these - in fact I talked to him in the last few days, and he had one on his bench. Then discuss with him the McIntosh MC-30's. He rebuilt mine, and these amplifiers are DEAD SILENT though Belle Klipsch - and WORLD CLASS sonics. They are, quite simply, a sonic orgasm. The midrange is simply magical, with deep, tight bass that pleases even this solid state weaned listener. Very liquid. I cannot say enough about these. Regardless of the amplifier you choose, Terry can rework them - and do it for an affordable price. When Terry rebuilt my amps and preamp, his rates were HALF what others were asking for the same work - and he is McIntosh authorized service. Terry is excellent at separating the "nice, but more cosmetic mods" from "the mods/updates that affect sonics". Terry will pinpoint that which affects your sonics, and separate those issues from the more cosmetic stuff - then let you decide exactly what you want done. Example: Terry completely updated my MC-30's (which included cosmetic restorations and two 6L6 output tubes, plus shipping here) for $380. Half of that bill was parts.....and he sold me those at his cost (what manufacturer-authorized tech does THAT anymore). I understand Jim McShane is very good at rebuilding the Cit II, but I think you can get more for your money in that updating. I only have 200 more in the purchase and updating of my amps than Mr. McShane is quoting for the rebuild of the Cit II alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Choi Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Arco: I see from your Website you have a Cit II in your system as well. So, you have no hum from your K-horns driven by Cit II? All of my Cit IIs have no power ground (lifted) and dedicated AC power. Ki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Ki, Electrical situation is same as yours. I do use an isolation (3kV) transformer, though... No hum whatsoever from this or any other amp I'm using. Still I consider myself lucky, as I reckon that this kind of problem can be very tricky indeed! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acts238 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 By all means, Jim knows what he's doing ! I personally do my own citations, run Klipschorns for monitors. I highly suggest doing the mods Jim has to offer ! You won't be dissapointed in the least, and it's worth every penny, believe me. I've had Citation II's since the mid 80's, and they are by far the best valve amp I've ever heard after all the correct mods are done, and no short cuts are made. I've heard many tube amps, and not a one can come close to my citation's, seriously. I run one Cit II per chan, in mono, with the early Russian KT90 type 3's. They're hard to find now days, and expect to pay the $$ for them, especially quad matched sets. The early KT90's love being ran in triode too I don't mess with gold lions. They're ok, but I personally like the KT90's better. Now, I haven't heard the new KT90's, so I honestly can't give an opinion on them. Anyways, hope this helps and encourages you to go with McShane's mod kits for your Citation. It's an investment you'll cherish for the rest of your life Cheers ! "Don't worry, be happy !" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I think your advice might have been more appropriate 7 years ago when the last post in this thread was made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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