sfogg Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 P.S. For amp 5 and amp 6 from earlier. Amp 5 = Crown K2 500w/ch digital switching amp.. what Crown calls Balanced Current Amplifier. Amp 6 = Monarchy SM-70 zero feedback SET (single ended transistor Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I want to know 1 through 4 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 ---------------- On 7/14/2004 7:38:34 PM Allan Songer wrote: Wahoo! would be OK too. ---------------- Welcome back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 ---------------- On 7/14/2004 6:46:52 PM Are Friends Electric wrote: I think the record reveals PWK's personal preference with the qualities of lower wattage through his speakers early on. ---------------- The record reveals that PWK liked his push-pull 10W Brook amp decades ago and then moved to a variety of mostly solid state amps in the approximately 60W range. He used lots of different brands. His literature recommended 20W amps as a minimum for Klipschorns. Seems like this was already discussed!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Wow, I'm impressed by the Adcom. The Dynaco is about what you would expect for a PP older tube unit. THD in the higher range (0.1X%) and odd order. Of course I can't say that anything I own is any better. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I haven't been following this thread, but once it got to 7 pages I figured I'd better check in to what the disagreement of the day was. Lo and behold, the first thing I see is Allan's back!! WOOHOO! Haven't read anything but this page, and not looked at any images yet, probably going to have to wait till tomorrow when I can read the whole thing and check all the pics, but looks like an interesting thread! Thanks for doing all the work/testing sfogg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Rick, "The Dynaco is about what you would expect for a PP older tube unit. THD in the higher range (0.1X%) and odd order." But not just odd order. I also don't know the condition of the tubes in that unit as I haven't run them through my tube tester yet. I think it has the fat bottle 6CA7s in it. I have a few other types of EL34s I could try in it to see how, if at all, the numbers change. I'll have to try that at some point out of curiosity. Also on all the 0.1w measurements it is worth noting that the harmonics are getting pretty close to the noise floor of the SD-380 itself. Those numbers tend to move a little while watching them. I just freeze the display to take the picture then move the marker to find out their levels. And there may be other harmonics buried below the range of the SD380 too of course. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 "Also on all the 0.1w measurements it is worth noting that the harmonics are getting pretty close to the noise floor of the SD-380 itself. Those numbers tend to move a little while watching them. I just freeze the display to take the picture then move the marker to find out their levels. And there may be other harmonics buried below the range of the SD380 too of course." I'm sure but for those of us with 100+db/w speakers those are the most important measurements. So even a bad picture is better than not knowing IMHO. Too bad you don't have a SET to run. I'd loan you mine but I have it half apart as I convert it to a 2A3 DRD topology. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 if you look at it in terms of horsepower per unit Cost, then the horn suddenly becomes much more cost effective - raising the point that the total music system may cost less for a given level of performance if the speakers cost more and yet require a much smaller amplifier. This brings in my much-quoted remark that what this country needs is a good five-watt amplifier.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 PWK's line is simply a take-off of this famous saying: PWK didn't use 5-watt amps and he never recommended using 5-watt amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 "PWK didn't use 5-watt amps and he never recommended using 5-watt amps." Bummer that, I guess PWK never got to experience real "Magic". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 So what have you all decided guys -- that a little distortion is good for the soul after all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Rick, "Too bad you don't have a SET to run. I'd loan you mine but I have it half apart as I convert it to a 2A3 DRD topology." Let me know if you want to measure it for you sometime. I did some more testing on the SE OTL too. I don't think it is clipping at 1w but it is getting close. Working from 0.01w up to 1w the distortion just worked its way up very progressively. At 1kHz at .01w I could only see second order, at 0.1w there was second and third at .5w it has second third and fourth, at 1w it went all the way out to 8th order. Increasing very much above that point the different harmonics started to jump all around with in some cases the odds getting a lot stronger then the evens. The sine waves were starting to look distorted at this point too. Pushing it further it pretty much tops out at about 1.8w and wouldn't put out any more power past that point. The sine waves were very distorted/clipped at that point. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Shawn, I have a extra Mark III around here and could tweak one up sometime and see what it looks like on your slick test equipment Where do you live ? I just scored a Sound Technology 1700B Distortion Analyzer on eBay but your setup would be interesting also. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Ok. First, can sfogg or mark tell us what all that means in a few brief words? It seems to me it indicates measurement wise the Adcom is the cats meow. Uh, which one sounds better? Do these measurements tell us that? Second, enough of the PWK thing already. The guy was pointing out a simple mathmatical relationship and an economic reality. I don't think he can be used as an advocate of low powered amps any more than he can be used as an advocate for mid-power steady state amps. The simple fact of the matter was, is, and always will be, the Khorns efficiency allows you to use very low-powered amps if it meets your listening requirements and the Khorns will reveal very quickly if your amp or sources suck. I, myself, would not be satisfied with the volume output of Khorns with an amp below 14 watts/ch. I state that fairly entrenched in my opinion but am always agreeable to being proved wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Share Posted July 15, 2004 "a little distortion is good for the soul" I do like your original signature, Dean. Regardless of what PWK said, the KHorns were made for SETs! And if you can't see that then too bad, just too bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 ---------------- On 7/14/2004 7:56:56 PM paulparrot wrote: The record reveals that PWK liked his push-pull 10W Brook amp decades ago and then moved to a variety of mostly solid state amps in the approximately 60W range. He used lots of different brands. His literature recommended 20W amps as a minimum for Klipschorns. Seems like this was already discussed!? ---------------- Paul, is this thread, interesting that it is, part of the matrix? What is the true reality here? Is the Oracle a SET fan or a PP proponent? I've lost track of some of this thread because the technical discussion has gone over my head. I am just wondering whether measuring distortion of an amplifier whether tube or solid state, or SET or PP, is a factor that can influence musicality. Isn't it more important to measure the type of distortion? Is it not true that our ears are highly tolerant of certain types of distortion i.e. even order distortion? In fact in some tests I've read about somewhere, I can't remember where now, certain tube amplifiers featured 4 or 5% distortion but it's mainly even order and the listeners actually preferred these relatively highly distorted amplifiers because they sounded 'nice'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Neo, since you are doing most of the baiting in this thread, out of curiousity, which SET amp advertises that it does 100 wpc continuous output, with peak output in the range of 300 to 400 watts? Some of the facts show PWK changed the engineering on the Khorns through the decades, incorporating new features that enabled higher power handling capabilities. Many of the ludicrous SET arguments create howls of derision among HT owners, and among friends who own SET run in parallel with subs. We don't even need to mention the legion of SS owners who already have been given the cold shoulder(gasp) by the proletariat tube owners. SET amplification can sound wonderful when operated in its special ballfield. It gives an incredible warmth and openess to good recordings. It is very enjoyable conversing with knowledgable SET owners who are cognisent of how SET amps operate, and readily admit the paradigms associated with such amps. It also wears on many to witness yet another car wreck over the incredible, mysterious and magical SET sound that no other form of amplification can ever dream of approaching(yawn.) Shawn set up an interesting window into the SET amplifier, and ... nothing. I see a glimmer that SET truly is magic, as in PFM. This is one example why I enjoy hanging with the DIY crowd in many cases. They may not know a lot to start, but they learn as they go along, making mistakes and discoveries at equal rate, and they arrive at a destination with comprehension of the hows and whys, without a thick overlaying of the flip side of the expression "If you can't dazzle them with diamonds..." An interesting aside in Klipsch and SET amp history is the Brook amp. Paul(and Brook) squeezed more power from the amp, running with a 2A3 push pull design that was then modified to address some bass deficiencies revealed by the cornerhorns. The Brook 12A was one of Paul's most favorite early tube amps, recommended as a lead quality amp manufacturer. Ironically, 50 years later, we are still rehashing what was put to bed back then as best as they could at the time... Shawn is right in part on the audiophile definition also - SET conversion topics to tend to stray well into the esoteric and away from the science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Craig, "and could tweak one up sometime and see what it looks like on your slick test equipment Where do you live ? I just scored a Sound Technology 1700B Distortion Analyzer on eBay but your setup would be interesting also." I'm in Ma., if you want to have me run some of the tests on the Dynaco just let me know. The distortion analyzer you have will probably show THD but it won't break it down so you can see each of the harmonics. I have a H/P 334a distortion analyzer too but the spectrum analyzer is nicer to use because it gives the distribution. Anarchist, "First, can sfogg or mark tell us what all that means in a few brief words?" That some of the claims made in this thread are very questionable. Contrary to popular opinion PP amps (and SS for that matter) are not nothing but distortion at low levels like so many seem to think. The amp 5 pictures are from a 500w/ch digital amp. Read some of the posts on the forum and you might think that thing should be all crazy amounts of odd order distortion. Yet even when tested at 0.02% of its maximum power (0.1w) it still has very low odd order distortion. On the Adcom at that level the odd order distortion is so low the instrument isn't seeing it. " Uh, which one sounds better? Do these measurements tell us that?" No, as I already said. *IF* a person knew what types of distortion they liked/enjoyed (and people didn't kid themselves that they may in fact like distortion) it might give some idea of which amp they may like. But since everyones tastes are different the measurements couldn't predict if you liked an amp or not for example. There are also other things that go on in an amp that don't show up in this test. Edwinr, " Isn't it more important to measure the type of distortion?" Yes, and I am measuring the types of distortion. When I'm talking about 2 order, 4th order,6,8...etc..etc.. order harmonic distortions those are even order distortions. When I'm talking about 3,5,7,9..etc..etc... order distortions those are odd order distortions. That is why this test is nice as it shows you this info very very easily. "Is it not true that our ears are highly tolerant of certain types of distortion i.e. even order distortion?" Typically but not always since again each person has different tastes. It is entirely possible that there is someone out there that just loves the sound of 7th order distortion for example. "but it's mainly even order and the listeners actually preferred these relatively highly distorted amplifiers because they sounded 'nice'." That is exactly the point I made early. To many people make the assumption that since they like/enjoy an amp it therefor *must* be a low distortion amp. That is the audiophile conditioning of 'accuracy.' It happens all the time in the SS vs tube threads and in the SE vs PP threads. The reality may very well be that they like/enjoy the amp specifically because it is inaccurate and adding distortion in say the form of second order harmonics or whatever else. In the above tests look at which amps are the most accurate of these tests. (Accuracy as defined by lowest distortion in these tests). Yet, I'm sure some/many here would choose the less accurate amps(more distortion) in this test over the others for their own personal listening. Thats why tests like the ones I did above can be interesting. A person might be able to determine what attributes of an amp mesh with their tastes and would therefor have a better real understanding of why they like something. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts