jdm56 Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 Fish summed it up with "less horny" - That is the direction klipsch seems headed. After all how do build a full-range horn, or for that matter, even a decent horn mid, into a cabinet that is of "designer friendly" width? As for the quality of the reference series, I never took the term "Reference" literally, anyway. You have to consider the msrp, and put "reference" in that context. It's comparable to Sony's "perfect sound forever" CD campaign. Did people really take that literally? To me, relative to the LP and all it's various short-comings, CD is "perfect...forever", but not absolutely. What is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 Doug---There's no problem taking the horn-loading down another octave and a half from where the RFs do and still keeping a cabinet with a small footprint. Think of the Heresies and Fortes which crossed over around 700hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Hmmm. Let me add some additional thoughts that are simply my own and in no way diminishes the enjoyment others get from their 'new Klipsch' speakers. I HATE those cheap plastic grills on the RF7's. I was thisclose to buying a new pair. 5 minutes of taking the grills on and off revealed the prongs already had stress cracks. I have the same 'type' of grills on my KSP400's. One has two broken prongs. The other has 1 broken prong. Touching those copper drivers in the RF7s resulted in visible deflections in the surface. I don't know. Maybe 'my' household would just be too touch on them; I want speakers that are hardy. My KG4s have been through hurricanes, flooding, and a dozen moves being tossed here and there. They are indestructible. The RF7's would have been scrap under the same circumstances; they do sound damn good though. Food for thought. Today, the horns in their speakers (other than Heritage) almost seem a marketing scheme and play less and less a role in their new 'sound'. This is not a bash and please don't read that harshly; I tried rewriting it to be less harsh but only so much I can do and still make the point. Will Klipsch still be Klipsch when they completely eliminate the horns from their Reference speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gerald Willis Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 You guys have sure made this an interesting first thread for me to get involved with. It seems the grill pins seem to be the one issue that makes the most people unhappy with the Reference name. The only thing I wanted to bring attention to was the marketing relationship to the horn. We spend more time developing the horn curves than anyone wants to know (including us!) on each new model. It is a tall order to get something that performs the way we want it to in a speaker that needs to cosmetically fit into a nice Living Room well. That part just keeps on getting harder and just takes longer. I appreciate all of the issues here, but I'm happy to see that most opinions here are like most of ours. The reference we're being judged by is the competition for that model. The reviews we get and your comments say that we're doing something right. Also, someone mentioned the 10 series. That's an interesting family that just started shipping (RF-10, RB-10, RC-10 and RS-10) recently. Take a listen to the RF-10 if you get a chance and listen to anything priced near it and see what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Well, all I can say is now days, people have space restrictions as their #1 issue - and if Klipsch is addressing this issue with small products, that for their size, produce great sound, they have defintely accomplished something. I think the Quintet system is very appealing to a lot of people because it is small, and sounds good. Athena's new Micra6 system is also very appealing to a lot of people. Some people see a RF-7 and bust out laughting - something like the RF-10 might do the trick. To take it a step farther (and to save Klipsch MILLIONS on research ), new homes on the West Coast are not home theater friendly. There are alcoves, no walls, windows and doors EVERYWHERE, etc. - and speakers need to be flexable on placement - and small/light to fit. Get a satellite that can produce clean sound from 80Hz - 20KHz, and a good, small sub, and most people will give the green light. There are more and more systems that accomplish that goal, and it looks like Klipsch is doing that, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 I think what CC, the original poster, was concerned about is the fact that MOST of klipsch's speakers lie in the "Reference" line. This idea seems to cheapen the idea of "reference" being the elite of a brand's speakers. I share the same sentiment... there should be reference, something else, then synergy.... to VARY the models klipsch offers. i feel that all these new additions to the reference line-up is not because of the fact that the speaker is "truly" reference level in quality and sound but more so because the name "reference" will MOST LIKELY boost the sales of the klipsch product. i mean.. i do not understand how the RF-10 will outdo the SF-3..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 I just wanted to jump in and say that I have had my 7's a few years.I take the cover off for dusting and to show the front if someone ask.I have had no issue with the pins at all on my 7's or 5's,I can see however that they prolly would not take much abuse and are not bullit proof etc...Given they way I take care of my equipment its not an issue for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_shadow Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I haven't heard too much of the new R-series if that is what you are referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royster Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I have never listened to the reference line products. But I would point out one thing. APPLICATION!!! That is something that alot of us forget about. The model name, or series name mean nothing to me. The proper product for the APPLICATION means alot. I have khorns, cornwalls, and kg series product and they are all in a different application. As a "horny" my passion is for the Heritage line, after all they were decades ahead of thier time when PWK finished the first one, and they are decades ahead now (IMO). Enjoy the product, upgrade as you can, and remember APPLICATON!! Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Hello: IMHO, it boils down to the original Heritage Line: The K-Horn, The Belle, LaScala, Cornwall - which should be included and available - and the Heresey. They are still competition for other speakers out there. They also did not have the plastic - both in face and in grille attachment. Note the number stating that their grille attachments are cracking or broken. Yet this Heritage Line for the most part are not in dealer shelves or floors, not really mentioned in line brochures and have to be ordered in most cases, unheard. There is a competition within Klipsch: Heritage vs Reference vs Synergy. Synergey included as some that could afford lower end Reference decide on higher end Synergy. Size is often mentioned: why no Cornwall when LaScala is still offered? Why a two (2) way speaker with for most, a need for a sub? Look at used market prices for the most part, there is a premium for a Cornwall I or II. HT and poor mixing at concerts have driven the desire for excessive bass. It can get to the point where it is difficult to hear vocals, lead guitar, organ, etc.. Houses are that not smaller today than forty (40) years ago. We fit large speakers then. And the excessive bass can have an effect on construction. Especially houses where the studs are Thenty-Four (24) inches apart on center. Vibration has an effect. Also an effect on hearing. Now is a good time to buy stock in hearing aid companies. My two (2) cents. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkp Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- Also, someone mentioned the 10 series. That's an interesting family that just started shipping (RF-10, RB-10, RC-10 and RS-10) recently. Take a listen to the RF-10 if you get a chance and listen to anything priced near it and see what you think. ---------------- I heard the Rf-10s last week and was quite impressed. I've been shopping around for a system for my dad in that price range with decent quality and have not been too impressed...thus far. These speakers sounded really nice, albeit a tad lacking in the bass department. I would almost go with a set of small bookshelves and a matching sub over the RF-10s to get the desired bass response. I don't recall the bookshelf and sub models I demoed the RF-10s against, but the price point was virtually identical. Nice looking speakers at a great price point. MSRP is what, $500? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Great lil thread gang, if I could add my .02. Klipsch has always been known not only for outstanding efficiency and design, but beautiful cabinetry as well. Name one brand with the longevity of Klipsch that has offered as many beautifully 'bookmatched' wood veneers. I was very sad to see the Reference line become production oriented with the advent of the RS and RC lines using vinyl on MDF board. I bought a beautiful pair of RB3II in natural maple when they were on closeout. Didn't know where I'd put em, just thought they were beautiful. Remember Klipsch, we have the WAF (wife acceptance factor for the newbies) to contend with, especially in larger tower speakers and multiple placements with our home theatres. Little things like the grille pins should be addressed and a solution offered. How about a retrofit kit with 'new' Reference-style magnetic grills for those of us who like to show off our cones? Speaking of little things, those 5-way binding posts are great, but why is the distance between red and black greater than that of a standard dual banana plug?? My KSC-C1, RC7, and RB3's all do not match the INDUSTRY STANDARD of 3/4 center-to-center for the jacks. Why would Klipsch deliberately ignore a simple standard like this that makes hookup sooooo easy?? Thanks for listening... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 ---------------- On 7/2/2004 3:08:17 PM Stephen Phillips wrote: Our Synergy line is designed for customers who desire excellent performance at a value price. Our Reference products make up our premium line, designed and engineered with the most expensive materials for consumers that demand the utmost performance, and are willing to pay a slight premium to achieve that additional performance. Klipsch offers a product line for most, if not all bugets. ---------------- Steve, As you may know, I own KSP-400's (Synergy Premier). At over $2500/ pair retail, it surely doesn't fit the "value" tag of the Synergy line. I see the KSP's as a precursor to the Reference line, both in quality of build and performance. How do you, and how does Klipsch see its place in K history, build quality, materials, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 ---------------- On 7/4/2004 1:02:55 AM Gerald Willis wrote: You guys have sure made this an interesting first thread for me to get involved with. It seems the grill pins seem to be the one issue that makes the most people unhappy with the Reference name. The only thing I wanted to bring attention to was the marketing relationship to the horn. We spend more time developing the horn curves than anyone wants to know (including us!) on each new model. It is a tall order to get something that performs the way we want it to in a speaker that needs to cosmetically fit into a nice Living Room well. That part just keeps on getting harder and just takes longer. I appreciate all of the issues here, but I'm happy to see that most opinions here are like most of ours. The reference we're being judged by is the competition for that model. The reviews we get and your comments say that we're doing something right. Also, someone mentioned the 10 series. That's an interesting family that just started shipping (RF-10, RB-10, RC-10 and RS-10) recently. Take a listen to the RF-10 if you get a chance and listen to anything priced near it and see what you think. ---------------- The issue of the plastic pins holding the grilles has been side-stepped in your reply. Velcro would be an easy, cost efficient, consumer related solution. Would you buy a car in which the window crank or switch broke quite easily? Given the choices available in speakers, PWK must be clawing to get out of his grave. That said , even the RF7 owners note the plastic pin problem. To me, plastic fronts do not make for a Reference speaker, putting the Heritage line aside I have been in dealerships in which a Customer took the grille off and the "pins" broke. Lost that sale. Maybe the conotation "Reference" is overused, but barring The Heritage Line, Klipsch and Reference are noted together. The best available. But in the cost cutting whether it be in wood, plastic, pins Klipsch still sounds better BUT the real deal is sale, quality, very few breakdowns and good Customer Service which all total to repeat buyers and good word of mouth advertising. In today's market, Klipsch, to me, is no longer a Reference in quality construction and noting the number of complaints with regards to Pro-Media, Klipsch is no longer the standard to try and achieve. In the reply I quoted the pins holding the grilles are not even mentioned as a problem, nor was the ease of denting a speaker. It is those problems plus close lower cost competition that causes a Company to lose repeat buyers and Market share leading to an eventual demise. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Great post! Both Fini and Dodger. Fini - my KSP400's were selected by me AFTER I had looked long and hard at the RF7's and even had negotiated a purchase at a very, very low price. I love these speakers, think they were the last 'best' thing, and was very disappointed to see them go away. IMO, the association with the Synergy line was a marketing faux paus; the KSP400s were/are a great looking speaker and provided incredible sound. Their associated surrounds were far better in my opinion to any of the other surrounds offered particularly in terms of directing the sound. I have moved mine so you actually get a direct sound from the rears AND the relected sound. Dodger - thanks man. It hadn't even occurred to me to use velcro. Those speakers fronts constantly fall off as I pump up the SPL's. Will be heading out for velcro as soon as I get back home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Oh, that's right. I forgot: Velcro is illegal in Miami... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 I use velcro to hold up my shorts.. Velcro at top & bottom of grill frames are ok but i dont like it not being flush with cabinet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 ROTFL. One of my better choices of grammatical structure. Of course, velcro might be the only thing illegal in Miami. What changes. I had a conversation with a guy where he actually said, "this here is 100% legal and this is what everybody gets" pointing to something else. Of course, he said it with a heavy Cuban accent. Miami is the new Wild West. We don't have brothels down here (at least not that I know about) but all you need to do is pick up a newspaper and the adverts for 'escorts' do not even feign innocence. Back on topic. I might need to buy the velcro here; hell, I don't even know if Kentucky has heard of Velcro. They just discovered DVD and that is only because of Blockbuster and Walmart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 ---------------- On 7/8/2004 6:54:47 AM fini wrote: Steve, As you may know, I own KSP-400's (Synergy Premier). At over $2500/ pair retail, it surely doesn't fit the "value" tag of the Synergy line. I see the KSP's as a precursor to the Reference line, both in quality of build and performance. How do you, and how does Klipsch see its place in K history, build quality, materials, etc.? ---------------- KSP-400's? I'd never even looked at their entry in Klipsch's "Classic Classics" section - I rarely read a mention of them. Their specs are interesting... 15" integrated, amplified side-firing subwoofer - only 9" wide, but 22" deep(!) Totally different from the KLF-30's that were produced at the same time, and it went ~10 hz deeper than the KLF-30! (+/-3db to 27 hz!!) How do they sound? They must have a ton of impact! How do they compare to Heritage and the KLF series if you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Oooh, just had an image of Maron and his Velcro-ed shorts in a Miami brothel. I goota go have a smoke...and I don't even smoke. Cleve, the KSPs sound great! I haven't done any critical side-by-side listening (not my style, and I'm too damn lazy), but they are awesome with movies and music as well. If I were ever able to figure out how to arrange them in this weird room, I could offer more input regarding soundstage, imaging, etc. I'll do that after I get the Khorns cornered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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