Coytee Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 hi guys/gals... I'm still pretty new here, so please pardon any deficiencies I might have in protocall. I have a pair of LAscallas that I bought new roughly 1979/1980. They've been disconnected & sitting unused in my unfinished basement (air conditioned) for the last 5 years while we built the house. This upcoming friday, my next door neighbor is having a retirement party... and another neighbor WAY down the road is planning on providing the music. His idea of providing the music is by bringing his car to the house, opening the trunk and cranking it up I volunteered my system for my neighbor, he gladly accepted. I've pulled the LaScallas out of the closet, dusted off & hooked up to my old Yamaha CR-2040 (120/channel) and they sounded fine, but kind of thin (weak on base). I removed the bottom to inspect the woofer KNOWING I'd have all kinds of surround rot and to my surprise, absolutely clean. All is intact. My "thin" base might have been my program source (steel drum band), I'm still in experiement stage. Because of this site, I've also unscrewed/retightened all the screws on one speaker (cant reach other one yet..hidden behind junk). Is it possible that I might have a worn out crossover? I looked at it and it has "AA" in red on the right side of it. If the crossover is worn out, is it easily replaced? Since party is this friday, I might opt to buy/replace, rather than rebuild/replace. I'd appreciate any thoughts. I'm going back down NOW, to keep tinkering with them. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Richard, I would be willing to bet your LaScals are fine! The woofer is horn loaded and will not go as deep as most speakers thier size. That's normal. They will rattle your windows otherwise though! Go for it! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 Hi Al & thanks. Indeed, you may be right. Got them both out & cleaned up. Hooked up a bit of Deep Purple to them (perhaps a bit more "boomy" content than the steel drums?) They DO seem to be ok thus far. Just a fyi, I LOOKED at the crossover & it's components and I could not see anything visually. (as implied by what I've heard on them leaking, though I dont know if that would really be visible). Anyway, me thinks I'm gonna hook it ALL back up, including my dbx subharmonic synthesizer and see if that brings them back to life as I'd remembered. maybe this will be a (the) catylist for my getting off my HINEY this winter and finishing the basement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Richard, In checking your connections, besides the screws on the crossover, check and loosen/re-tighten the screws on the small terminal strip that is between the crossover and the woofer. I have seen a problem there once before. With all connections good, there should be no reason that the bass would be less because of the crossover. When the crossovers age, the ESR of the old capacitors goes up and this is heard as a decrease in the output of the high frequencies. This decrease seems to average about 20 percent based on rebuilding several of the Type AA crossovers for customers. None of the caps are in the woofer portion of the AA crossover. Bob Crites bobcrites@centurytel.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Coytee, It is possible that over the life of the Scalas that the caps on the crossover have drifted off spec. It seems that the La Scala and Khorn open air location of the xovers is not as friendly an environment for caps as those sealed in Heresy or Cornwall cabs. I sent off a pair of 30 year old AA xovers to Bob Crites to check out for me. They were about 10% or more off spec. Probably not enough over which to lose sleep, but I asked him to replace the caps. This is a fairly economical refurb option to get them back to factory spec. He can also easily mod them to be switchable between type A and AA and/or add the #3 tap squawker mod whis is a switchable option. I listen to my Khorns using this mod almost all the time. It lowers the squawker level by 3db, which to my ears, in my listening room lends a more pleasing balance. Have also used these crossovers in La Scalas with high satisfaction. If you find out they are right on spec you could just have him send them back and you'd only be out shipping. Something to consider for getting your Scalas back in service in grand style! You might also be interested to do a search on the forum to see AK-4's crossover options. Dean produces some neat crossovers using different caps in a more hot rodded, no compromises approach. You've got a couple of can't go wrong options with either of these guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I would second have Bob Crites (BEC on the forum) having a look at yours or building you new AA. Al K can also build you his ALK Crossovers (another excellent option). Both options would probably improve your sound but most noticeably in the mid to higher frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 How old is your Yamahammer? I've got a late 70's Sansui quad receiver over here that my day gave me, and it sounds simply horrid. I'm guessing the electrolytics are about shot. Rebuilding your AAs will give you more HF extension, better imaging, and smooth things out a little. However, the additional HF extension might actually contribute more to your "lean bass" problem, since it will tip things up a little. You need a good amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Make sure you check all connections to woofer,,,loosen and re-tighten all screws,,,,i think this will fix the problem if woofers are in good shape and working at all,,which i think should be fine unless a mouse got to them,,,Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 "including my dbx subharmonic synthesizer " Unless you keep it down to a whisper, Death to LaScala woofers! Leave it in the box for the party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- On 7/6/2004 1:25:03 AM djk wrote: "including my dbx subharmonic synthesizer " Unless you keep it down to a whisper, Death to LaScala woofers! Leave it in the box for the party. ---------------- Surely you jest?? (do you??) I've had this synthesizer hooked up inside my 3bx with this system for probably 23 of the 24 years I've owned it. (albiet not the last 5 years). Anyway, it's not only never shown any (obvious) death to the LaScalla woofer, it's added a very nice punch. ** I'm not trying to argue, I just dont understand the point given my real world experience. If you (or others) would care to expand on the concern, I'd love to hear the what's & Why's. Just for record... before my system (in it's entirety) went into hibernation 5 years ago, it was setup as the following 2 front mains, LaScallas 2 front "effects" 2 Academys 2 rear "effects" Electro Voice Interface D 1 front center Academy 1 Yamaha HT (forget number) 7 channel surround system (powering all EXCEPT for rear EV's) 1 Yamaha CR-2040 (120/channel) for my EV's Hooked inside tape loop (and here is where you purists are going to slam me) 1 Audio Control, real time spectrum analyzer/equalizer 1 dbx 3bx 1 dbx 110 (subharmonic synthesizer) Had this system all through college (played for number of frat parties for $$) and carry it forward to today. (the academy's & HT were more recent additions) Anyway, with all the abuse I put that through, the LaScallas never showed an inkling of "death" by all the pounding, so my "real world" experience is in direct conflict with your suggestion. Care to enumerate? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Coytee, I'm not really a tech type and don't know the functions served by all your gear, but I sure am interested in how you hear the difference compared to a straight out amp to Lascala connection. When I was listening to LaScala's all the time, I came to think their sound was much improved with a sub to pick up where they rolled off on the low end. Does your setup help with some of that? Or wherever your hear the difference? If you'd share your take on that, it would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- On 7/6/2004 9:59:27 AM DaddyDee wrote: Coytee, I'm not really a tech type and don't know the functions served by all your gear, but I sure am interested in how you hear the difference compared to a straight out amp to Lascala connection. When I was listening to LaScala's all the time, I came to think their sound was much improved with a sub to pick up where they rolled off on the low end. Does your setup help with some of that? Or wherever your hear the difference? If you'd share your take on that, it would be appreciated. ---------------- Gosh... at the risk of offending those who have the "audio ear" and receiving their sonic wrath for my wayward ways... First... (buffer to those who are the purists) When I hear some delicate sound system at the high end store playing whatever... it usually never sounds the same as what I might hear when at a REAL concert, with all the ambient noise and creshendo. That said, "for me" and "my ears" when my LaScallas are setup straight to the main output with ZERO input, they sound clear, clean and frankly... like tranisister radio lol (I LOVE my speakers, so I do NOT mean that in a disparinging way) Anyway, the 3bx is a range expander that with old tapes/Lps, was usefull in putting some sonic punch back into the program content. The "110" (sub harmonic synthesizer) takes the program material at (50 perhaps??) hz and reproduces it an octive LOWER and adds that lower octive back into the signal loop, thereby adding a "floor" of base. It has a bass knob and a sub bass knob so you can vary it a bit. The Audio control is nothing more fancy than a equalizer that has an analyzer so you can have a rough idea of the sound of the room...(upshot??? it has a fancy display and can look very cool) The 3bx is the main component in the tape loop, with the other two components inside the loop of the 3bx. (tape in/out of preamp goes to 3bx) The 3bx has a pre/post button where you can ALSO expand it's INTERNAL tape loop (where the other 2 reside) I do not do that. Ok... upshot of all of this? I think the LaScallas are rated to like 45 or 48 hz on the bottom end? The EV's are rated to something like "20,20,000" HOWEVER, their -3db point is 28 hz @ 106 db. Meaning, (and someone help me if I butcher this please) The EV's play at 28 hz, ALMOST as loud as the Klipsch do at 45 hz. So, adding the two together with the goodies in the tape loop? lol as far as I'm concerned, you have to be there to understand. Upshot is, the Klipsch will hit the "midbase" and pound you in the chest, whereas the EV's with their 28hz floor, will then shake the foundation. I might (read that as will) look into a sub down the road when our basement is done, and might look for one (like the SVS) that goes into the teens and use the sub for sub work, the EV's for "bass" work and the LaScallas for the PUNCH work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- On 7/6/2004 9:59:27 AM DaddyDee wrote: Coytee, I'm not really a tech type and don't know the functions served by all your gear, but I sure am interested in how you hear the difference compared to a straight out amp to Lascala connection. When I was listening to LaScala's all the time, I came to think their sound was much improved with a sub to pick up where they rolled off on the low end. Does your setup help with some of that? Or wherever your hear the difference? If you'd share your take on that, it would be appreciated. ---------------- Gosh... at the risk of offending those who have the "audio ear" and receiving their sonic wrath for my wayward ways... First... (buffer to those who are the purists) When I hear some delicate sound system at the high end store playing whatever... it usually never sounds the same as what I might hear when at a REAL concert, with all the ambient noise and creshendo. That said, "for me" and "my ears" when my LaScallas are setup straight to the main output with ZERO input, they sound clear, clean and frankly... like tranisister radio lol (I LOVE my speakers, so I do NOT mean that in a disparinging way) Anyway, the 3bx is a range expander that with old tapes/Lps, was usefull in putting some sonic punch back into the program content. The "110" (sub harmonic synthesizer) takes the program material at (50 perhaps??) hz and reproduces it an octive LOWER and adds that lower octive back into the signal loop, thereby adding a "floor" of base. It has a bass knob and a sub bass knob so you can vary it a bit. The Audio control is nothing more fancy than a equalizer that has an analyzer so you can have a rough idea of the sound of the room...(upshot??? it has a fancy display and can look very cool) The 3bx is the main component in the tape loop, with the other two components inside the loop of the 3bx. (tape in/out of preamp goes to 3bx) The 3bx has a pre/post button where you can ALSO expand it's INTERNAL tape loop (where the other 2 reside) I do not do that. Ok... upshot of all of this? I think the LaScallas are rated to like 45 or 48 hz on the bottom end? The EV's are rated to something like "20,20,000" HOWEVER, their -3db point is 28 hz @ 106 db. Meaning, (and someone help me if I butcher this please) The EV's play at 28 hz, ALMOST as loud as the Klipsch do at 45 hz. So, adding the two together with the goodies in the tape loop? lol as far as I'm concerned, you have to be there to understand. Upshot is, the Klipsch will hit the "midbase" and pound you in the chest, whereas the EV's with their 28hz floor, will then shake the foundation. I might (read that as will) look into a sub down the road when our basement is done, and might look for one (like the SVS) that goes into the teens and use the sub for sub work, the EV's for "bass" work and the LaScallas for the PUNCH work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 oops, sorry for the double post... told you I was new For penalty on double post, I'll immediately go listen to 20 looped repeats of "How deep is your love" by the Bee Gee's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Coytee, you are running a basic closed cascade process loop, which is similar to what I did in college. The 3bx is a nice pony, but it is best used in moderation. On poor material, this alone will be the culprit in making things sound bad, as most of the restored and enhanced response will be in the midrange and tweeter domains. You may notice some pumping and overly bright snare and high hats. The audio control eq was a good one in its day, tho the Scalas really only have three to five trouble spots where frequency response spikes or dips in the five dB range. A good parametric 1/3 octave eq device will be better suited to cope with these trouble spots, ala Rane. The bass doubler synth will kick the bass information up by 3 dB, but here you need to remember that you are forcing bass information out of a garden hose(woofer) that is not engineered or designed to operate effectively in that lower octave. The better way to address it in the home environment is along the route you already have gone. On remote locations, the peasants just have to suffer! Bob, Dean, and Al all deliver the goods with their crossover work. Go through the archives, and read whatever else comes out in the coming months. If you don't want to change your components, then crossover work would be a good route to consider in maximizing speaker performance. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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