Cal Blacksmith Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Well, the VTL ultimate arrived at my door step at 8:50 pm Sat night. FedEx isnt supposed to deliver after 8:00pm so I gave the customer service a call at 7:50 and gave them the riot act. I dont know if it had anything to do with the delivery though, probably not. As I was unpacking the preamp, there was the sound of things rattling around in the unit NOT GOOD! I took the covers off and 3 of the 4 tubes on the phono board had been knocked loose as well as the board its self, which is suspended with neoprene rings to aid in reduction of micro-phonics. Luck was with me though as none of the tubes were broken and I was able to find all of the neoprene rings to re-suspend the board. DONT SHIP FEDEX!! EVERY TIME I DO THERE ARE PROBLEMS!!! So now then where were we? Oh yes, how the pre-amp sounds. I have been using a Yamaha receiver preamp section (Yamaha RX 930) and it has sounded quite good until now! The room was my usual listening room and setup. The signal from the CD player was split and sent to both preamps. The output from each preamp went to an A/B switch and was then sent to the main amplifier, a Sound Frontiers Power 1. I set each preamp to the same spl using the same source track before starting the evaluation. The peaks were set at 80db. A brief list of the music played follows along with comments I noted while listening. If you start to see the same comment over and over, sorry, Im just telling it the way it happened. 1) Bach: Toccata and Fuge. VTL presented a fuller, wider sound stage. When switching to the Yamaha the first impression was that the sound was more balanced but after the first ½ second, you realized that what you were hearing was a compressed sound with the highs cut off. The VTL was more open and detailed in the mids and highs. The VTL sounded louder but the SPL remained the same between the two units. 2) Handel: Water music suite no.2. VTL presented brighter more detailed presentation of strings. The VTL sound stage was about 12 wider on each side. Horns have a more rounded, fuller sound. 3) Mozart: Serenade. Yamaha feels more compressed with smaller sound stage. VTL is a more full sound 4) Haydn: Trumpet Concerto. VTL presents a wider, more full, deeper sound stage. More detail, longer echo and note sustain. Instrument placement was easier to pick out than on the Yamaha. 5) Schubert: Die Forelle. Yamaha sounds more muffled VTL has more sustain in notes and the piano is clearer, more life like. 6) Mendelssohn: A midsummer nights dream. VTL more precise instrument placement, easier to hear drums, more detailed, more depth. 7) Rossini: Overture William Tell. VTL Flutes richer, woodwinds are more full, wider, deeper sound stage. 8) Buddy Guy: Damn right Ive got the blues. VTL entire presentation more bright, more sass in electric guitar. Clear cymbals, longer sustain. Able to hear breath in vocals. Bass more controlled, tighter. Echoes longer, more developed. 9) Pink Floyd: Another brick in the wall. VTL wider sound stage, more high frequency, helicopter more life like, more detail, more harmonics. At this point I stopped trying to compare the two and just settled in for a long listening session! Comments: As the phono input can be adjusted from 100 ohms to 4700 ohms the match to my phono cartridge wasnt as good as it will be after some experimentation. Thus all listening was through the CD player. There are no tone controls and balance is set via a unique method. To quote the manual, Also our method of controlling or trimming the channel-balance is somewhat different from commonly used circuitry in that ours is based around a small variation in the feedback loop. This is because we do not like either the insertion loss gain-wise of an additional volume control in the circuit nor its inherent deleterious effect on the signal path. If we can easily hear when a balance-control of the pre-fade variety is switched in or out of a circuit then we feel it is not a permissible or desirable feature. Verily, we would like to omit any form of balance control but realize that this is an essential control needed for certain recordings and sometimes for speaker position corrections. (although we prefer not to think too deeply about this extreme usage of a balance control!) Manufacturer specs: Vacuum tube complement (2) 12AT7, (2) 12AU7, (4) 12AX7 T.H.D. 20hz to 20khz Less than .6% S/N Ratio -95db Maximum output voltage 27 volts Input sensitivity 5.5 volts Input Impedance 157k Power Consumption 35 watts Primary mains fuse rating 3 amp slo-blo Dimensions (w,d,h) 19X9X5 Weight 22 lbs. Phono section Maximum input 1 khz mm 30m volts Maximum input 1 khz mc 17m volts S/N ratio -86 db Riaa deviation 20 hz +19.27db 20khz -19.62db Problems with unit as bought. In addition to the shipping problems, while the unit was open to reseat the tubes I noticed the chassis ground screw was loose so that the wires attached to it were loose. I tightened the screw. After the test, I used all the switches, knobs and controls. I found that the Program/mute switch needs to be replaced.. someday. It works correctly in the program position but when moved to the mute position, the operation is intermittent and needs to be jiggled to get the preamp to mute. One of the cables supplying power to the preamp (a dual mono preamp) from the separate power supply to the preamp has a loose connection, a slight wiggle and it made contact and has worked flawlessly since. All things considered, I am very happy with the unit. As I need to buy used to get better equipment than I can afford to buy new, I rate this unit as a high value to dollar trade off. Would I buy it new? Probably not as the new price of $3500 + (1990) is out of my price range and the Yamaha new in 1989 was $700. The timbre and voice were very close between the two units with no pronounced tube sound in the VTL. Although the Yamaha does have a more shallow and narrower sound stage and with the compression you can hear between the two switched instantly, the difference to this penny pinching listener most likely would not be worth the nearly $3000 difference for a while then knowing the difference between the units, I just might seek out a used VTL to upgrade to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 Sorry, I forgot to upload the picture of the two units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 resized Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 I think that this version should have 2-12AX7 & 2-12AT7 in the line stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Well dam I just switched from UPS to FedEX because of shipping problems and units arriving broken and boxes partially crushed. The last two times I shipped there were problems and they are the hardest to collect from or at least for me. What other shipping options are there? I was thinking that perhaps next day delivery would be an option as travel time is reduced? Shipping is the only thing I don't like about buying items off of audiogon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 Guy; The 2-12at7s and the 2-12au7s are what is installed in the line section. This is also verified by the owners manual provided with the unit. The 4-12ax7s are on the phono board. I must thank you for insisting in a nice way to get this unit. I am very happy with it and I do think it will be a long time anchor in my system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Do you have an original owner manual or a copy? The earlier versions (with the 2 power cords) suppose to have 12ax7's instead of 12au7's. If you view the schematic on the 1st edition of David Manley's Vacuum Tube Logic book, you'll be able to verify this. It will still work with a 12au7 instead of a 12ax7 but will sound darker. What is the serial #? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 When I hit the Powerball I may try one of these?? Wow, each unit is 335lbs and has 24 KT-88's. http://www.vtl.com/pages/mb1250specifications.html'> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 ---------------- On 7/20/2004 2:13:35 PM Piranha wrote: When I hit the Powerball I may try one of these?? Wow, each unit is 335lbs and has 24 KT-88's. http://www.vtl.com/pages/mb1250specifications.html"'> ---------------- If you do get these amps, you will get some special company to boot. The website says: "To assure proper installation, each new pair of Wotan MB-1250 sold will come with the personal attention of VTL's President Luke Manley. Luke will custom install the MB-1250's for all new owners." Guy, the manual is just an owners guide but it is an origional. I will post the serial number when I get home and look at the amp again. I will also try to find a publish date on the manual but it references dual line cords in the discription of the preamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Great report. Thanks for sharing it with us. I particularly llked your use of different types of music from classical to blues to rock. Enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 ---------------- On 7/20/2004 3:09:44 PM cablacksmith wrote: ---------------- On 7/20/2004 2:13:35 PM Piranha wrote: When I hit the Powerball I may try one of these?? Wow, each unit is 335lbs and has 24 KT-88's. http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/http://www.vtl.com/pages/mb1250specifications.html' target='"_blank"'> ---------------- If you do get these amps, you will get some special company to boot. The website says: "To assure proper installation, each new pair of Wotan MB-1250 sold will come with the personal attention of VTL's President Luke Manley. Luke will custom install the MB-1250's for all new owners." Guy, the manual is just an owners guide but it is an origional. I will post the serial number when I get home and look at the amp again. I will also try to find a publish date on the manual but it references dual line cords in the discription of the preamp. ---------------- All the personal attention comes with a steep price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Since you just doubled his profit margin for the month, he should offer to give you a pedicure, facial, haircut and massage as well You will also need to set up a seperate climate controlled environment for your stereo rack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 ---------------- On 7/20/2004 12:54:04 PM Guy Landau wrote: Do you have an original owner manual or a copy? The earlier versions (with the 2 power cords) suppose to have 12ax7's instead of 12au7's. If you view the schematic on the 1st edition of David Manley's Vacuum Tube Logic book, you'll be able to verify this. It will still work with a 12au7 instead of a 12ax7 but will sound darker. What is the serial #? ---------------- Ok, Guy, I'm back. The "manual" is a copy with no date. It was spiral bound which threw me off. There are also some pages faxed to the pervious owner on 8-7-99 from VTL which goes into the MC phono section. There are aslo some schematics there also and they do show the 12ax7's. The "manual" shows the 12au7 so if either will work, I guess I need to get some nice quality 12ax7's to try out! The serial number is ULT 0184 so there it is for what it is worth. There are some differences on the back pannel from the book also. I have 2 outputs labled 1 and 2. There is also a pair of rca jacks labled REC on the input board, I have no idea what they are for as there are seperate inputs for the MC and the MM phono section as well. Any light you can shed on this subject is welcome! I will take a pic tonight of the back of the unit and a better one of the front also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 If you CAREFULLY remove the cover of one of the separate power supplies you'll see the manufacturing date of the power transformer. My guess that it's 1987 or 1988 and it's definitly the 1st version with the 12ax7 (it also sounds better). The version with the 12au7 had an XLR (balanced) MC input and a dedicated phono MM and phono MC switched input and not just a single phono input. It also had a single set of outputs (to drive only 1 amplifier and a single power cord. If I remember correctly, my 12ax7 version SN was Ult 0186 so you've got the first version. (I can check it with my friend who bought it from me but it can take a couple of days). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Front left side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Front right side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Back left side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Back right side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Inside from top front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Inside from back top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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