artto and the khorn - a (depressing) review

[artto]

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On 8/2/2004 11:35:00 AM DrWho wrote:

If a mono signal of equal magnitude is played to all speakers. Wouldn't the 100Hz signal be louder than the 30Hz signal? 3 speakers versus 2.

src='http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif'] And I didn't really want you to turn the center channel down because it created a depth i've never heard before and i was enjoying it way too much.

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No, it shouldn't. You're still getting a "stereo" bass signal to the flanking speakers. The Belle is getting a true L+R mono signal, the same way the flanking speakers would get a mono signal by turning the blend on your preamp or receiver to mono. Therefore the Belle's bass signal would be more prominent.

I'm pretty sure after thinking about this, that is what you were hearing. I often turn the center speaker down 3dB or more because of this bass prominence. There's a very fine line between turning the center channel down to reduce that "boxy" or "tubby" sound quality and losing some of the depth and precise lateral imaging the center speaker provides. As I mentioned when you were over, this is more of a problem with analog recordings than digital because of less channel separation. For that very reason I use a high precision (10 turns) potentiometer on the center channel box. And as I mentioned earlier, it wasn't until recently (primarily with true DSD SACD recordings) that I realized I could run the Belle wide open at the same level as the Khorns. Obviously this will vary from recording to recording. When I'm sitting at the location you were my familiarity with the system allows me to make minor adjustments when I hear it's needed. For the sake of convenience I didn't bother with any of that since most people, hearing the system for the first time, usually don't pick up on this. Of course you're much younger than I (and most Forum members) so your hearing is certainly more intact.

[DrWho]

As far as the high frequency roll off that you're experiencing, i have to mention that it wasn't noticeable at all (it actually probably helps make CDs sound better as well). I like to pride myself in being able to hear up to about 22kHz (unofficial test), and until the last few years I used to be able to hear dog whistles as well (There was an incident during a live show where this drummer smashed the crap out of his snare while my ear was right next to it while I was adjusting some mic positions and working on a faulty cable. Ever since, hearing in my left ear has been slightly different and both ears are less sensitive now, but I'm learning to compensate). Anyways, there is very little musical information above 10kHz anyway and I've found that any information that does exist up there usually sounds distracting anyway...probably because there's so many older produces out there that crank the hi-hat because they're deaf. And there are very few mics that I've come across that will actually capture those frequencies accurately and then most recording mediums don't handle them very well either, though I believe sacd will be changing that. (I know a lot of mics like to brag about super high frequency response and all that crap, but specs aren't everything).

Anyways, I just realized that I never talked much about the mids and the highs in my review...

In the live mixing world, I've always been surrounded by horn loaded mids and tweeters which direct radiating bass so I think it's fair to say that I'm much more accustomed to that kind of sound. However, in all the studios I've been in (half were amazing, half were crap), everyone was using direct radiating speakers for everything in super dead rooms (which, if you've ever experienced, sounds extremely unnatural and takes a long time to get acustomed to). Again in the home audio scenario, I've only ever heard direct radiators except for a tannoy system a friend of mine owns...but his system sounds like crap because it's in a basement with wood panelled walls and a linolium floor (anything over 75dB sounds congested down there and he likes to listen at 110db plus...he's a fellow live mixer of mine as well! lol). Ok sorry, I'm rambling again...

Anyways, I was slightly afraid of hearing some honky tonky super loud and bass shy system. Ok, maybe that's a bit of an exageration, but never hearing horns for home audio and reading thousands of reviews about horn distortion this, honky tonky that, blah blah blah...put me in a mindset expecting to hear at least some hint of truth from all those claims. I know it's dangerous to walk into a new system with preconcieved biases and opinions on how it should sound, but it was hard to totally ignore the "audiophile world" (hah, what a joke). At the same time though, I went into this listening session also knowing that this wasn't going to be perfect. It may be close or at least the best I've ever heard, but far from perfect (I don't think we'd want to hear perfect anyway, nothing would sound good...well at least not until mixing techniques got better).

Well I must say that all those reviews that I've read about problems with horns are a complete load of crap, or I'm totally deaf as well as the rest of you lot here on this forum Live PA systems for the most part use horns to increase the output capability of the system as well as to help focus the sound. This of course results in small hints of the honky tonky crap that I've read about. Moral of the story? Just don't put PA crap in your home (even then, not all PA stuff sounds that way anyway). There was a clarity I've never heard before in the home when listening to the khorns...There was no way to differentiate between a real instrument and the speaker...In fact, I'd argue that the speaker sounds better because a mic was placed in the optimal position for the best balance of all the sounds from the instrument and then I get to sit back further away and enjoy a room filled with that point in space that was recorded. The best term I can come up with is "clear", like looking through newly cleaned glass (the kind your dog will run into because he can't see it either, hehe). Another term that came to mind was "HUGE". The sound was extremely deep and large and powerful and effortless. I wish I could describe that feeling, but it really feels like you're getting lifted out of your chair. I had to keep opening my eyes to make sure I wasn't being teleported around the world. And I know these are extreme comments and I can't stress how much they fail to describe the actual event.

And for the record, those chairs were extremely comfortable too...just aids in the reduction of distractions.

About the noise floor in the room...Everytime Art and I were talking on the phone, he kept talking as if he was worried about planes flying by or his dog barking or all sorts of common day sounds that I wouldn't exactly consider annoying. To be honest, I was thinking to myself that this guy seems just a little bit overboard psycho crazy. But after listening to the lack of sound, I totally understand where he's coming from now. I was amazed at the amount of details that get revealed when the noise floor drops through the floor. To give you an idea of how quiet it was, I could hear the disc in the sacd player spinning during segments of silence...even then, I had to strain to hear it. If you walked up to the speakers, you could just hear that slight "shhhhhhhh" sound that tube amps like to make. It wasn't like the hiss you get with SS. Hiss sounds unnatural, the shhhh sounded kinda cool actually (kinda like a big fricken engine ready to take off) I could also hear Art breathing off in his corner and I was afraid to even move or breath myself. I could easily picture myself getting entranced by the music and then upon hearing a mouse skitter across the floor going psycho trying to kill it. And the silence wasn't dead either...there's a big difference between the two. A lot of studios I've been in like to absorb the everything and its two brothers which always results in that eery unnatural feeling. If you ever get a chance, walk around in an anechoic chamber, it'll drive you nuts Anyways, this was the complete opposite of that...it was a live quiet room; just like when you go to the symphony.

That reminds me, I think it would be good for me to say that I've only been to one big "concert" in my entire life (which was the CSO, man the was another drooling experience). Every other concert I've been to (which is a lot), I've always been involved in some part of the production (usually mixing FOH). So though I've only been to "one" symphony, I can confidently say the room was just as live and cool sounding. (For the record, I've been to a lot of other smaller scale ensembles and what not...a bunch at Wheaton College which Artto will tell you is an amazing place. It's just that "the symphony" is much more extreme in every way).

Wow, again I'm getting carried away. I hope someone is enjoying reading all this, lol. I know I'm enjoying reading some of the responses; especially yours Art...I'm noticing that we have a lot of the same views on a lot of stuff...not just your room, but the industry in general. Let's try to find something we totally disagree on and argue for the sake of arguing

[sunnysal]

wow artto! just more proof that a tweaked listening environment can really get the most from your system! 16hz? holy cow! congrats, tony

[dbflash]

DrWho,

Excellent review. You have brought up a lot of good points to consider both dealing with recordings and room treatment.

Artto, Thank you again for sharing your room with another BB member and responding with such detailed information.

I have a new room and would love to see what you think I should do to it.

Thanks again to you both for sharing your comments. A very good read.

Danny

[artto]

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On 8/2/2004 2:12:25 PM DrWho wrote:

...it was a live quiet room; just like when you go to the symphony.

That reminds me, I think it would be good for me to say that I've only been to one big "concert" in my entire life (which was the CSO, man the was another drooling experience). Every other concert I've been to (which is a lot), I've always been involved in some part of the production (usually mixing FOH). So though I've only been to "one" symphony, I can confidently say the room was just as live and cool sounding. (For the record, I've been to a lot of other smaller scale ensembles and what not...a bunch at Wheaton College which Artto will tell you is an amazing place. It's just that "the symphony" is much more extreme in every way).

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I'm glad you made this analogy. That is exactly what inspired some of my objectives. My favorite hall is the Foellinger Great Hall at the Krannert Performing Arts Center at the University of Illinois, Urbana (my alma mater). My wife and I used to attend concerts there nearly every Sunday night. While this hall, architecturally/acoustically speaking is much more 'geometric' than my room's curved surfaces, its interior is very striking. When I first observed it, it was like walking into a chamber of heaven. Photos don't do it any justice. Its one of those things you must actually see to comprehend. While my room is certainly not as grandiose, I attemped to capture some of the same feeling, both visually and acoustically.

I haven't heard the CSO in a while, but I know there was a time they were considered the finest symphony orchestra in the world (believe me, I had no idea at the time. I thought, "WHAT? Chicago?!"). I don't know if that reputation is still intact. I still remember coming home from my first CSO concert, turning on the stereo in my bedroom (Crown, JBL L100 studio monitors, Thorens) and wondering what was so wrong. I even dragged the equipment out into the living room figuring maybe it just needed more space to 'open up' and produce a larger sense of sound. I quickly realized it was going to take much more than that!

I probably should have played one of my recent recordings for Mike since he's familiar with Wheaton College Church. I record the Wheaton-Glen Ellyn Chorale's concerts several times a year. Last year they started performing in the Wheaton College Church and I've been getting some very excellent results from that space using a simple, spaced stereo pair.

[Griffinator]

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On 8/2/2004 10:32:09 AM gullahisland wrote:

So....Is it just me, or are there A LOT of musicians frequenting the Klipsch forum?

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It's pretty simple - most people with burning passion for music are also musicians in some form or another. Music pumps through my veins, not blood, therefore I play, listen to, and work with music in some form or another as much as I possibly can. I play bass, guitar, and piano, ran a mastering studio for some time, do on-location recording and live sound on the side, and am attempting to get a high-end home theater installation business off the ground. Why? I LOVE music!

[Marvel]

Some of us even argue like musicians are wont to do.

Lap Steel / Dobro / acoustic guitar here. A paltry bit of gear I use to record friends on occasion ], but it's not my real job. I play for my own amazement mostly.

Marvel

[mikebse2a3]

DrWho says;

"Anyways, I just realized that I never talked much about the mids and the highs in my review".

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"There was a clarity I've never heard before in the home when listening to the khorns...There was no way to differentiate between a real instrument and the speaker...In fact, I'd argue that the speaker sounds better because a mic was placed in the optimal position for the best balance of all the sounds from the instrument and then I get to sit back further away and enjoy a room filled with that point in space that was recorded. The best term I can come up with is "clear", like looking through newly cleaned glass (the kind your dog will run into because he can't see it either, hehe). Another term that came to mind was "HUGE". The sound was extremely deep and large and powerful and effortless".

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Hey artto:

From a couple of post I've read of yours I assume your KHorns are still stock is this correct?

The reason I ask is because I had mentioned in another thread that I've been wondering if alot of the problems people are attributing to the stock squawker & tweeter horns & drivers aren't really acoustical/room problems. I believe your room is one that proves that the stock drivers/horns are actually capable of very high performance if given a good enviroment and thus the first thing people wanting to upgrade their sound isn't swapping drivers/horns but instead (if things permit) treating their rooms would be the the best choice.Especially some form of diffusion can go along ways toward clearing up edginess and increasing detail in the Squawker/tweeter range.At least if treatments are done first and improvements are still felt to be needed you would atleast be able to hear any improvements better.

mike

[scriven]

Mike excellent point! I know that I understand the sound system but when it comes to the room acoustics I am clueless. So my knee jerk reaction, and I suspect most others in the forum, is to tinker with the sound system. I am becoming more convinced that my room needs work more then equipment in it the problem is that I am still clueless!

[Ctiger2]

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On 8/2/2004 2:12:25 PM DrWho wrote:

I like to pride myself in being able to hear up to about 22kHz

LOL

[Griffinator]

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On 8/3/2004 7:04:02 AM Ctiger2 wrote:

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On 8/2/2004 2:12:25 PM DrWho wrote:

I like to pride myself in being able to hear up to about 22kHz

LOL

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I did some testing on my speakers - I was aware of 21Khz, but I couldn't really hear a tone. I could, however, hear a 20Khz tone perfectly at about 75dB.

[Deang]

"...I've been wondering if alot of the problems people are attributing to the stock squawker & tweeter horns & drivers..."

What problems?

[dgb]

Get one of those cool, 70s Pioneer things with the psychodelic, reverb lights!

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In the mean time, I have been tweeking my system with different amps, crossover upgrades, and hopefully soon some room treatements to try to pull a little more of the reverb out of my setup without having to drop so much cash on different speakers. Time will tell.

Thanks Artto for introducing someone else to the sound great music reproduction.

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[DrWho]

for the record and my curiosity, what kind of interconnects and speaker cables are you using Art?

[artto]

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On 8/2/2004 10:45:08 PM mikebse2a3 wrote:

Hey artto:

From a couple of post I've read of yours I assume your KHorns are still stock is this correct?

The reason I ask is because I had mentioned in another thread that I've been wondering if alot of the problems people are attributing to the stock squawker & tweeter horns & drivers aren't really acoustical/room problems. I believe your room is one that proves that the stock drivers/horns are actually capable of very high performance if given a good enviroment and thus the first thing people wanting to upgrade their sound isn't swapping drivers/horns but instead (if things permit) treating their rooms would be the the best choice.Especially some form of diffusion can go along ways toward clearing up edginess and increasing detail in the Squawker/tweeter range.At least if treatments are done first and improvements are still felt to be needed you would atleast be able to hear any improvements better.

mike

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Well, not quite. The changes however, are minimal. On all three speakers I removed the diode protection. On the crossovers I also disconnected the inductor to the woofers. This supposedly produces a somewhat smoother midbass response although its audibility is arguable. Before I built the room, I wrapped the mid-horns with several layers of Mortite, that flat rope-like sticky gray weather-striping to dampen any vibration/ringing. Id like to replace the K400 with the molded resin-fiber K401. And the Khorns are, literally, secured to the reinforced wall and house foundation. I made a corner plate out of 2x10 that fits snuggly into the corner, sealed with closed cell foam weather-striping tape, and bolted this with (10) ¼ lag screws into the foundation wall. The Khorn tailboard is secured to this corner plate with (8) ¼ lag screws. This provided a surprising amount of improvement in the midrange/treble, not the bass as I expected (although my neighbor on that side of the house would probably disagree, LOL). Its as if the small amount of vibration induced into the entire speaker system from the bass horn, was relatively equivalent to, possibly greater than, the distance of travel of the mid/treble driver's diaphram, producing an effect equivalent to moving the drivers around in the space while theyre playing. After securing the Khorns to the foundation there seemed to be better focus and clarity in the mid/treble range. The Belle is sitting on 3 steel isolation tips which essentially mass load the speaker to the concert floor.

At this point I have absolutely no doubt that room acoustics are influencing performance differences that horns in general (actually, all speakers), and Khorns in particular, are often criticized for. IMHO you can change all the equipment around that you want, but in the end, all you will have is a major compromise, because its all still influenced by the room. There are certain things involving acoustics that just cannot be made up for, by substituting various components to obtain system synergy, or whatever you want to call it, or moving speakers/equipment around. The room is part of that system and influences everything you hear. Take noise floor for example. Mike mentioned how quiet the room was. Yet the room is not dead. Live quiet is what he called it. He was amazed at the amount of details that get revealed when the noise floor drops through the floor. How does one makeup for this when the listening room is not quiet (inadequate sound isolation)? Most people turn the volume up. But doing this creates another new set of problems. Overall system distortion goes up. Reverberation time gets longer and mixes with the direct sound too much and too soon ruining inner detail, timber and spatial cognition (at all frequencies). The quiet parts of the music are not rendered properly. The loud parts can get too loud and cause what I call acoustic overload of the room, just to mention a few. And consider that Ive only touched on one aspect here, sound isolation/noise floor.

At least if treatments are done first and improvements are still felt to be needed you would at least be able to hear any improvements better. Well said.

[artto]

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On 8/3/2004 10:14:16 AM DrWho wrote:

for the record and my curiosity, what kind of interconnects and speaker cables are you using Art?

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Nothing particularly special. Mostly older Monster Cable "InterLink II" in the main signal path for primary components (LP/SACD to preamp & amps). Speaker wire is Esoteric Audio 12 gauge OFC "King Snake". Terminations are Monster Cable "Xterminators". All connections (even tube pins) are cleaned with Caig ProGold cleaner/conductivity enhancer (this stuff actually works)

[DrWho]

ok, since i have no idea what the heck that is, how much per foot did you spend on it?

[artto]

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On 8/3/2004 10:43:47 AM DrWho wrote:

ok, since i have no idea what the heck that is, how much per foot did you spend on it?

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Hell if I know, that was 15-20 years ago! LOL. I don't know, maybe $20 for a 3' pair. Maybe $30 for 100' of the King Snake. That probably translates to 2.5 to 4 times that now, inflation adjusted.

[mikebse2a3]

"...I've been wondering if alot of the problems people are attributing to the stock squawker & tweeter horns & drivers..."

DeanG asked "What problems?"

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What I've noticed in reading some threads is that people changing Squawker drivers/horns and Tweeters are talking about is improvements in clarity, detail, openness, naturalness,extension etc. Things that artto's Khorns/Room shows the basic Khorn is fully capable of rendering.

My own experience is similar to what I've read of DrWho's. Which I believe supports the idea that the stock drivers/horns are very capable of producing very realistic sound and imaging and we need to be looking more at the room first if we are to achieve the best from them.

Now please! anyone doing modifications "I'm not saying that its not better or not an improvement" it could well be!(But in a well treated/designed room stock Khorns are (Among) The GREATEST Speakers Avaible).I do believe that there are other things happening because when you change these drivers/horns your also playing the room differently and this could also be where some perceptions of improvements are coming from.I'm just saying that Khorns(and all speakers)would benefit from room treatments and if its possible for a person to do so it should be (IMHO) done before modifying the speakers It would be interesting to hear the differences of these well thought out modified Khorns in the same well treated/designed room versus a stock Khorn.

As Mr Klipsch suggested "Since the room is perhaps the second most important or critical entity in achieving good audio, music listeners would do well to expend as much effort on the room as on the selection of the dynamic acoustic elements like loudspeakers".

mike

[D-MAN]

Your review and artto's past posts have me considering "DOING THE WHOLE ROOM" thing - DAMMIT!

DM