cd playback

[steelie]

I'm going to be in the market to upgrade my CD player soon and have been looking into different options.

I was wondering whether folks around here thought I'd be better off getting the Benchmark DAC-1 and an inexpensive CD player as a transport or whether I can get better sound by going for an equally priced stand-alone CD player.

I have some time to keep looking so I'm in no rush.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

[thebes]

Since no ones chimned in yet I'll give this a bump. I've read various threads in here and there are mixed viewpoints on whether adding a DAC to the equation leads to more problems then it solves. Many feel that a new changer is the way to go.

I'm in sort of the same quandry that you are because I have a massive high end Yammie cd changer fromt the early '90's with an 18 bit dac, and am also curious if adding a dac would be a cost effective solution.

Since I have no technical chops at all I too am hopeful some folks will be weighing in on this one.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have never gone the DAC route, but have gone the mod route, John Tucker from Exemplar has amazing mods, I have his denon 2900 and have himmodding a 3910 as I right. Thsi will BLOW AWAY ALL redbook decks under 8000-10000. Yeah I know that is a bold statement so, it is only in MHO, but check out the review by a well known guy who says, the only better machine on redbook was the reiymo(14K). I also have experience with Alex Peychev APL hifi, I have his SACD 1000 mod with volume control, and the SACD has personnaly been compared to 20k plus TT's, he is modding a 3910 for me as well. Yes, i am NUTS

[seti]

I have a friend with an EAD transport and dac which i listened to the other night and it sounded so much better than his rotel. My next purchase is going to be a cd player and I have decided to go with a tube output either a decware tube cdp or an ah! joeb 4000 with upsampler. Both of these cdp's are so well regarded by users not reviewers on this forum and audioasylum that I believe either one would be a safe bet especially when you consider the price is under $1000.

Good luck!

[AnalOg]

The Ah! is Ah!mazing!

Tom

[leok]

I've used 2 very inexpensive cd players with a Sonic Frontiers "TransDAC." The sound is excellent. I've upgraded the original op amps and added bias to push the op amps into class A operation at 0V crossing. Biggest upgrade was a power line filter for the entire system. I can hear improvement if I move the DAC power from filtered to unfiltered. I think cheap transport and good DAC is an effective way to go.

Leo

[nicholtl]

Not that I want to disagree with Leok, but if you're looking to upgrade a CD player, I'm pretty sure you're looking for an upgrade that will last you until CD's are obsolete, your hearing fails, or the unit gets broken in a natural disaster. So along those lines, I don't think "cheap" should be a word in your vocabulary when looking to upgrade. Don't cut corners here. Get the best you can afford and that way you'll never look back, only ahead, with a smile to carry you.

Now, I've never tried the transport --> DAC --> preamp route before, but here is what I have, the connections used between the source component and the preamp/amp combo, and my thoughts:

1) Sony ES 400 CD changer --> Monster Reference Toslink --> Preamp

-- This combo sounds quite good. Better than most people's systems, I can honestly say.

2) Denon DVD 3800 --> Kimber D60 Reference Coaxial --> Preamp

-- Sounds almost identical to the CD Changer, the Denon having a slight edge in bass tautness and musical imaging.

3) JVC DVD XV-SA602 --> Monster Reference Coaxial --> Preamp

-- A little lacking compared to the Denon 3800. It's sound and dynamics are basically identical to the CD Changer.

4) Pioneer Elite 59AVi --> Kimber Hero RCA's --> Preamp

-- Quite a dramatic difference, probably due to the fact that unlike the aforementioned 3 units, which are being utilized strictly as transports, the Pioneer is going analog, using it's own internal DAC's. However, with all the other shared circuitry of a universal player, it doesn't stack up to my Preamp's DAC's and so in CD reproduction, falls short of what the Denon 3800 can do.

5) Classe CDP-10 --> PS Audio XLR's --> Preamp

-- THE WINNER. Because this was designed as a purely dedicated CD player, there is no shared internal circuitry or sharing of internal real estate. Hence, it's power supply, DAC's, internal clock, jitter mechanisms, laser pickup technology, and whatever else have you, are all outstanding and superior to the previously mentioned 4 players.

SO IN CONCLUSION, what I find is that a high-end, dedicated CD player is in fact victorious over some very respectable, high dollar transport devices, as the Denon 3800 and Pioneer 59AVi. Again, I've never tried the Transport --> DAC --> Preamp combo (and why would you if you already have a high-end preamp?), but I really don't feel you can go wrong with a solid and superbly built dedicated CD player. And the upside is that they don't necessarily have to come with a painful stomping on your wallet, either. Rotel has an exceptional CD player for a reasonable price, as does Arcam.

[steelie]

Thanks for the comments.

one of my concerns has been the longevity of the technology. Mechanically, my 10(?) year old CD player runs just fine, but the sound seems skewed toward the highs. I'd like a more rounded better imaged sound and eventually, I know I'll want to upgrade whatever I buy next once again. That's why I'm looking for ways to cut the eventual upgrade path, maybe in half.

Either route, the DAC + transport or the integrated CD player, won't be cheap and this won't be an easy decision. Specifically, I was considering something like Cambridge Audio's 640 and an outboard DAC versus something like McIntosh's new CD changer.

The DAC option should cost about as much as a 2nd hand McIntosh.

Thanks again.

[kev313]

...because a transport -> preamp would not make any music! kidding.

Seriously, though, the theory behind a transport to an outboard DAC is just like seeking to seperate the amp and preamp (or video processor and dvd transport for the HT folks). I use an original rega planet to a musical fidelity tri vista 21 dac. Simply awesome. Blows the standalone rega away. rega, btw is high quality AND cheap. Opinions differ as to the sound of the rega by itself, but it would be hard to argue that it isn't a helluva transport bargain at $300 - $350. Built like a frickin' tank. The trivista, however, was not cheap.

[edwinr]

A cheap CD player and a more expensive DAC is not the way I'd go. I frankly I think the money is better invested in a really good quality dedicated CD player utilising the built in DAC. Build quality is important to me. So to is reducing the tangle of interconnects when you start introducing outboard devices to your core hi-fi system.

[Frzninvt]

If you are not going to use a digital output, get a used Nakamichi OMS-7AII you can Mod DVD players to your heart's content but they are not going to come close to the smoothness of this player I don't care how much you spend! This player sold for $1995 back in the late 80's, early 90's and not much has been built that can top it.

I have yet to hear a DVD player in any price range that can rival the playback of a dedicated CD player.

[Erik Mandaville]

I'm also one of those who can't seem to stop changing things around inside my amps and preamp!

However, I was very much in your situation recently, and my wife and I purchased something we thought would be a comprehensive player in terms of present and future digital formats. The Denon DVD 2900 is truly built like a tank, and supports ALL formats, including DVD Audio. It's transport and converters are already outstanding (at least in my opinion), and I'm sure it will last for many years to come. We bought ours online for approx. $700. I plan no upgrades or modifications to it.

I was also pleased to find very positive comments regading its performance in the latest issue of Stereophile magazine (not that I always necessarily agree with everything that shows up in that publication, but it was nice to have some 'professional level' confirmation of my own evaluations of the player.) It is also supposed to provide outstanding video quality, but we uses it exclusively for two channel stereo/SACD playback. We have an RCA DVD player we use for movies, which is also happens to sound very good for music!

Good luck in your search!

Erik

[oscarsear]

Just a note. No DACs currently upsample SACD signals. Soooo....if SACD is in your "now" or "soon 2 B" plans you're relegated to getting just a good SACD unit.

[steelie]

I have a Denon 2200, a universal player that in my opinion does fine with movies and SACD/DVD-A but I just haven't gotten comfortable with CD playback. I still use an old Sony CD player for everyday redbook playing. One of the problems with the Denon is that it occasionally won't read CDs that my Sony plays just fine. It's never done this with DVDs or SACD, just some older CDs. It also gets awful hot - not to the point where I'm worried about it but the Sony, in comparison, is ALWAYS cool, no matter how long I leave it running.

Finally, I should run a test CD to confirm this but I could swear the Denon's midrange is also shallower than the older CD player.

Anyway, I'm looking to buy soon but I'm certainly in no rush so I've got plenty of time to look into all my options.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Erik Mandaville]

That's interesting, Steelie. I've had nothing even remotely similar, and the Denon will be only barely warm to the touch, and needs to be on all day and night for me to notice it. Redbook CDs play just fine, but all things have their little quirks, I guess, and probably not every component is exactly the same.

If our Denon was exhibiting the same symptoms as yours, it would have left a long time ago. If it's not reading standard CDs the way it should, than it's not performing as designed.

I agree that some of the higher end Sonys are very good, too.

Erik

[nicholtl]

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On 10/29/2004 3:00:58 PM steelie wrote:

... I could swear the Denon's midrange is also shallower than the older CD player...

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This might be because you have the Denon hooked up via RCA's, and the Sony hooked up via digital? I don't know, that's why I'm asking?

[cjgeraci]

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On 10/29/2004 3:18:12 PM Erik Mandaville wrote:

That's interesting, Steelie. I've had nothing even remotely similar, and the Denon will be only barely warm to the touch, and needs to be on all day and night for me to notice it. Redbook CDs play just fine, but all things have their little quirks, I guess, and probably not every component is exactly the same.

If our Denon was exhibiting the same symptoms as yours, it would have left a long time ago. If it's not reading standard CDs the way it should, than it's not performing as designed.

I agree that some of the higher end Sonys are very good, too.

Erik

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Erik, I share Steelie's opinion about not being thrilled with the redbook performance of the Denon (mine a 2900). I keep my 2900 for SACD and DVD-Audio, but it just was not pleasing for redbook duties, even on pure direct, etc. Who knows, maybe its our experience with these titanium tweeters that if not properly handled - can shrill enough to cut glass.

I used to think my 2900's CD performance was ok, but as my system progressed (and became more revealing), the 2900's deficiencies became apparent. Some must take issue with the stock CD performance of the 2900 because a number of companies now offer mods relative to the 2900's CD performance and analog output (including tubes, etc. as noted above). I almost sent my 2900 to be modded and almost purchased a Benchmark or Bel Canto DAC. In the end, I opted for neither and went with a modded Jolida JD-100, tubed output player (modded by Underwood). Very detailed, wide soundstage, and warm and full sound. Never heard an unmodded JD-100, but they also get rave reviews.

If I were you, Steelie, I would do a tubed player (Ah!, Heart, or Jolida) or a higher end CD player, as mentioned previously.

On the issue of warmth and CD skipping, I agree with Erik. My Denon 2900 has never really been that warm to speak of, even when left on all the time. As for tracking of CDs (other discs), it usually plays every CD - even mangled ones. I know the 2900 has a different DAC than the 2200, but I thought that they shared similar transports. May be a problem there with your 2200.

On the issue of DACs, do a search - I started a thread some months ago in two--channel entitled "outboard DACs" or something like that. Yielded some interesting responses. Ultimately, I decided against a DAC (yet) because I was not sure it would help tame my titanium tweeters.

Carl.

[steelie]

Thanks for all the informative replies. All the information helps. Right now I have the Denon hooked up with RCA for SACD/DVD-A playback and with fiberoptics for DD/DTS, when I let the processor in the receiver do the decoding.

The CD player is hooked up only with RCA, no optical inputs attached.

The Denon doesn't ever skip. It just refuses to recognize some of my older Redbook CDs. Maybe they're just damaged in some way but the Sony reads them and plays them regardless.

On the issue of heat, I just mentioned it in comparison with the Sony. The Denon warms up while the Sony stays as cool as can be, no matter how long it's been on.

Tubes on the CD... that's an interesting issue that I'm just not up to speed on but I'd be willing to give them a listen. I'll have to do some reading up first though.

Thanks again for the help.

[Erik Mandaville]

Ah! Yes, I see the point concering the SOUND of the Denon. I have heard others mention something about that sometimes 'shrill' aspect of the player. I also wrote to a company about modifications they do for the Denon, but at around $900 for the 'warmer' sound they said the player would take on, I found the amount of money rather extreme. Moreover, the bright and articulate characteristic of the player is the main thing I like about it. That's just my personal taste, though. Although I understand and can appreciate the fact that many like a warmer, perhaps slightly more 'rounded' tone, I have never cared for that kind of reproduction -- again, just my own personal preference.

Some on this forum also think a preamp will dictate the overall sound of a given system, and that if an SS preamp is being used, one may as well do away with a tubed amplification stage. This is no more true (IMO) than if a CD player, most of which have solid state rather than vacuum tube output devices, is being used with a passive attenuator. The couple of volts output from a CD player is very close to what many with an active preamp would be using to 'drive' their amplifiers. Some tube preamps I have heard and/or built are very slow, and in my opinion can compromise the performance of an otherwise articulate and detailed tube amplifier. I have several friends who use high quality SS preamps with their tube amplifiers for this very reason.

....don't ask me why I've gone off on this tangent, because I have no idea! Maybe it's related to the modified Marantz player mentioned above that uses vacuum tubes on the output (which is supposed to be a really fine player for an excellent price!)

Erik

[Audio Flynn]

In the end, I opted for neither and went with a modded Jolida JD-100, tubed output player (modded by Underwood). Very detailed, wide soundstage, and warm and full sound. Never heard an unmodded JD-100, but they also get rave reviews.

++++++++++++++

I heard Shapeshifters Jolida; it is a keeper. Deeper souindstage than my MSB DAC

++++++++++++++

If I were you, Steelie, I would do a tubed player (Ah!, Heart, or Jolida) or a higher end CD player, as mentioned previously.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not a bad choice of the three; but will be well over $ 500 even used.

++++++++++++++++

On the issue of warmth and CD skipping, I agree with Erik. My Denon 2900 has never really been that warm to speak of, even when left on all the time. As for tracking of CDs (other discs), it usually plays every CD - even mangled ones. I know the 2900 has a different DAC than the 2200, but I thought that they shared similar transports. May be a problem there with your 2200.

++++++++++++++

If I have any problem with any mass market device take it back immediatly. it is the only way they will stop making junk.

I also purchase an extended warranty. I have an ONkyo changer that is going back due to disc read errors to Circuit City. My wife likes changers; I like DACs. it is a reasonable compromise

+++++++++++++

On the issue of DACs, do a search - I started a thread some months ago in two--channel entitled "outboard DACs" or something like that. Yielded some interesting responses. Ultimately, I decided against a DAC (yet) because I was not sure it would help tame my titanium tweeters.

Good used DACs by MSB, Audio Alchemy, Adcom and others can be found for les thn $ 400 and sometimes as low as $ 200.

A cheap experiment. Along with a Rat Shack digital cable.