psg Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 I guess Klipsch don't leave anyone indifferent. There's a Klipsch discussion going on at ecoustics.com where someone that "old Klipsch for many, many years" says: - "The Heresy was honky and boomy" - "The LaScala on up in the Klipsch line was a horn loaded bass alignment that allowed for quick transient attack (the advantage of horn loading); but, did not damp the woofer's movement after the signal had finished. This, and the box resonance of the plywood cabinet systems, gave a boxy, underdamped frequency hang over to the bass response." - "The most common disadvantage is a resonance in the throat of the horn that comes from an underdamped structure." You can read it at http://forum.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?1/109192 and scroll down to Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 01:35 am by J. Vigne. -- I guess I could turn my La Scala around to see if the mid-horn "resonates" or not. Should be easy to tell if it does just by touching it? And I've never described the La Scala bass as "boxy". Anyone care to comment on the above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 I hate when I have a typo in the subject line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Yep, there will always be folks who don't like the Heritage sound. It sounds "LIVE" to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 a great speaker will often create strong passions...... for most of us here - that strong passion is WOW!!! what an awesome sound!!! for people who want their sound to be polite or to cover up for imperfections in their signal chain - they can always go buy many less efficient, less revealing speakers - say like the rocket brand from av123 i also feel that klipsch speakers give you that "live sound"..... personally i appreciate the fact that klipsch has not tried to please everyone by producing a boring - average sounding speaker line..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Big ole horns are NOT the same as conventional loudspeakers at all and most of what falls for wisdom in the cone camp flies out the window in the halls of horns. There are arguments for horns that, unlike conventional bass-reflex cone loudspeakers, the large front panel of the classic Klipsch corner Khorns is SUPPOSED to resonant with low vibrations. Dampening the Klipsch horn lens with rope caulk does improve the sound. The resonance of cabinets is particularly important to cone drivers, because the cones themselves can NOT be easily or so effectively dampened. Instead, the cabinet must be dampened. There are problems with all loudspeakers, true, but the problems of low cost big ole horns are just as easily solved as the problems that other loudspeakers have. Yet, when these problems, mostly amplification, are solved, big ole horns give much more exuberant and emotionally involving performances than other more expensive options. Loudspeakers are the only bargain in audio: you get a lot of bang for your buck. Big ole horns are the best bargain in speakers. What used Heritage loudspeakers do for hundreds shames what conventional cones do for thousands. Generally the cheap box store offerings are just that cheap. Many of my friends love the small size of Bose. I seriously auditioned their Jewel cubes, in my home, with the same equipment and the same music, for EnjoyTheMusic.com. Because of the lawsuit-happy Bose Corp., the review did not appear. The small, stiff and sturdy cubes however, do a very good job of casting a wide, but diffuse, soundstage within much of the musically critical range. They do not have the sparkling highs and trembling bass that tweaking audiophiles cherish. They do not have the sensitive mid-range detail or smooth tonal balance. Some people like the soft sound. I know a fellow audiophile, who loves the soft cone loudspeakers that I hate, he keeps saying he can hear through to the music. He does NOT like lots of sonic details, high-end or low bass. Many people simply do NOT seek the 3D illusion of the sonic holograph, which is the Holy Grail of tweaking audiophiles. I want my home movie and music reproduction system to fake me out make think that somebody, if only a singer and a small acoustic band, are right there, somehow, just beyond my front wall. Few HT lovers actually want. Star Wars objects whizzing by on the right and the left are enough of audios magic for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 Dampening the Klipsch horn lens with rope caulk does improve the sound. I first read about this yesterday! What sound should I be looking for to see if I would benefit from this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Don't mess with all that nasty caulk or petroleum smelling dynamat just buy a pair of the K-401K composite horns from Klipsch Parts for $100 and be done with it. Then you can sell the metal cast ones on eBay for double what you paid for the K-401's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Well that does it! I'm getting rid of my Khorns, Belles, La Scalas, Hereseys, and Fortes! I don't know what I was thinking all these years....loving the sound of Paul's creations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 ---------------- On 11/18/2004 10:13:37 AM Frzninvt wrote: Don't mess with all that nasty caulk or petroleum smelling dynamat just buy a pair of the K-401K composite horns from Klipsch Parts for $100 and be done with it. Then you can sell the metal cast ones on eBay for double what you paid for the K-401's. ---------------- i used the rope caulk on my KLF-30's..... even with my plastic horns and it seemed to tighten up the sound slightly.... it is easy to use and has no smell at all.... http://doityourself.com/store/ropecaulk.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 I used rope caulk on my '76 khorn squakers and heard no difference at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoriated_Tiger Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 PSB: Nothing new there. Horns have long been maligned by 'audiophiles' -- envy, I guess, since the only thing that even comes close to a proper horn, to my ears, is a nice planar or stat. Cones / domes just don't cut it. PWK's straight-forwardness didn't help either. I bet he made many, many enemies in the audiophool press and industry. Screw 'em. We know better. ;o) Since the advent of the avantgarde, which is oh-so-pretty and expen$ive, I've noticed an uptick in interest in proper, compression-driven horns. (vs horn-loaded lowthers.) Perhaps this time around, our horns will triumph... Naah. People are still too gullible. We'll remain a fringe, and personally, I'm proud of fringe ;o) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 I here this crap all the time, in fact, the LEAST expenseive part of my system is my KLIPSCH. Does this make them bad? I don't think so, cause when people finally hear my system, their jaws normally drop. I have looked up to 10k used in speakers, and have yet to find something that works better for my current situation than horns, and klipsch. They must be jealous and must like UNreality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 I here this crap all the time, in fact, the LEAST expenseive part of my system is my KLIPSCH. Does this make them bad? I don't think so, cause when people finally hear my system, their jaws normally drop. I have looked up to 10k used in speakers, and have yet to find something that works better for my current situation than horns, and klipsch. They must be jealous and must like UNreality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 " and the box resonance of the plywood cabinet systems, gave a boxy, underdamped frequency hang over to the bass response." I'd say he hit that dead on. See what a cabinet brace looks like: http://www.hps4000.com/pages/525_.html - "The most common disadvantage is a resonance in the throat of the horn that comes from an underdamped structure." 25 years ago VanAlstine was beating the drum for Moretite on the K400 throat and horn. The fact that the 'new' K400 is made of plastic changes how the resonances sound, it doesn't eliminate them. None of this may bother you, you may in fact like it. Some sad facts (from personal experience): Most people can't hear. Those that can, seem to like the least musical sound. The 1% that can hear, and like musical sound, never seem to have any money. I ate at McDonald's yesterday, '99 billion sold' has little to do with the quality or taste of the food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 " and the box resonance of the plywood cabinet systems, gave a boxy, underdamped frequency hang over to the bass response." I'd say he hit that dead on. See what a cabinet brace looks like: http://www.hps4000.com/pages/525_.html Looks like a modded La Scala. Has anyone ever tried this mod on a La Scala to see if it makes a difference? Anyway, I can't hear a hang after a quick bass note... - "The most common disadvantage is a resonance in the throat of the horn that comes from an underdamped structure." 25 years ago VanAlstine was beating the drum for Moretite on the K400 throat and horn. The fact that the 'new' K400 is made of plastic changes how the resonances sound, it doesn't eliminate them. What does that sound like? Can you feel a vibration it by putting your hand on the horn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 ---------------- What does that sound like? Can you feel a vibration it by putting your hand on the horn? ---------------- When I dampened mine, what I noticed most was that women singers and choral pieces sounded more defined. The big Aluminum 400 can ring like a bell in the right conditions. Play something at a moderately loud volume then turn it off fast and you may hear some ringing. I did. I could not feel the horn vibrate with my hand. Also, on the same note, I have heard more horn "purists" state that they desire the 400 over the newer 401 and state that its overall extremely rigid construction just does a better job! FWIW, I have not compared the two side by side. You probably would not hear any difference, or very minimum, unless you have a perfect "Artto" room. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Peter, I could feel my K-400s vibrate when listening the Loreena McKennitt. I used Dynamat. I got the idea from their ads in the Crutchfield catalog. Rope Caulk is easier and equally effective. The ring is heard as a hard edge to french horns and trumpets and female voices. When damped the whole speaker sounds "calmer", less excited, or less edgy. Several here did not like the effect; I can't understand why. The bass horn resonance can be easily heard on any Seal recording. Seal sounds "chesty" or "boomy". You will be able to feel his voice in the side walls of the bass horn. The HPS 4000 mod should be excellent. If I had seen it before I had mine finished, they'd have it. I'm too afraid to do it now because I don't want to mess them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 Thanks guys! I'll have to listen for these effects carefully to see if I can hear them (and not blame my 31 year-old AA crossovers! ) Then I'll read up on Rope Caulk. The Dynamat stuff looks fairly expensive for the quantities needed (unless the whole horn doesn't need to be caulked). Thanks again! This guy is keeping his La Scala's!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I braced my Heresys with 1" x 2"s, put Dynamat on the metal horns and inside the cabinet. Lastly, I added 1.5 bags of fiberfill. Used Liquid Nails for the bracing. When I did one, you could knock on it - no resonance. Compared to the other. As previously mentioned female voices sounded better. Bass more defined. As for the article - that's why they are called opinions. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuNat Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 the fact that most people hate horns keeps the prices down on alot of the heritage jems out there... ive seen flawless pairs of khorns go for as low as $1500 over the past few years. $1500 barely buys you a new pair of paradigm bookshelves.... hell the bose lifestyle 35 set is $3500 i beleive. im actually consulting at bose right now, and they have brainwashed just about everyone in the company... except the A/V groups. they certainly dont use bose in the recording studios. i couldnt find a name, but it looked like older wilsons... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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