fletcherkane Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Shopping for a new receiver, and hanging out on these bulliten boards tells me I need to look at the Harmon Kardon line. My question is this. Why do they so woefully underpower their lower lines. Some of their HT recievers are running at as little as 35W per channel. I know that watts per channel is not everything, but still... The cheapest ($150)entry level Pioneer with DD and DTS (which I currently own, and doesn't sound terrible by the way) comes in at 100 watts per channel. You have to spend some serious cash to get a HK receiver with 100 watts per channel. Is a HK reciever so much cleaner that it doesn't need as much power? It would seem that anything less than 100 watts would have serious issues driving my Fortes when listening to full range movie sound tracks. Harmon Kardon fans here's the beef. Why should I spend 400-500 large on a entry level HK when I could spend the same on a much better powered, better featured Pioneer 1014tx? I want to like HK, but I am having trouble justifying a purchase of one. Help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 One thing about HK is that they under rate their equip. My 7200 is rated at 100 wpc into 7 channels and 115 wpc into 2 channels. When S&V bench tested it, it measured over 140 wpc in the 7 speaker mode (all channels driven) and over 190 wpc in stereo. They also rate their wattage across the entire audible bandwidth, not at just certain frequencys like some manufacturers. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Because those 100 watts from that entry level Pioneer are probably rated at 1Khz with 10% THD. It is not the amount of watts, but the quality of the watts. HK uses high current designs and while the wattage ratings may not be as high as others the better power supply and capacitors lead to better overall sound. The HK's will deliver more current which the the real power behind the wattage ratings, and they are probably better adapted to handle challenging loads that may dip below 2 ohms at certain frequencies. If you are using Klipsch speakers that are highly efficient you don't really need more than 100 watts per channel. A good quality amp with 70W X 5 should be more than adequate. My big DBX BXI's are rated at 100W X 4, but are stable to below 1 ohm and can even handle loads down to 0.1 ohm if called for during transients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Not only do they rate their equipment in a more accurate fashion, but I also feel they use better components in their products. Power isn't everything. Heck, for $5,000 you could build a Camaro that could go 0-60 in 4.x seconds, but I doubt you'd then ask "Why does Porsche charge so much for their cars when mine's faster?" Quality will never go out of style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletcherkane Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 I understand that quality is better than quantity, I just want to make sure I am getting my money's worth. The HK line sure looks sweet on the rack, but when reading the spec sheet at my local big box, they don't seem to add up. What am I missing, and what specs do I need to look at to be better informed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Don't focus on the specs, focus on the sound! Specs mean nothing when it comes to how a receiver or amplifier is going to sound. Go listen and see what sounds best to you! Everyone hears and interprets things differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Fletcherkane: May I add my nickel - I bought the HK AVR430 just over a year ago, and am driving Forte's for both my L&R, and surrounds as well. Personally, I could not be happier with the unit; as a matter of fact, I wrote a "short review" for Olorin on the board about a week ago. At 65WPC, and with the efficiency of horns, I rarely drive the amp beyond the -20dB mark; I just don't need it (and this is in a 20 x 21 room). While you may feel that HK receivers are conservative, Forte's MORE than make up for any "lack" of wattage and don't require 100WPC. If you are budget minded, $500 buys you a loaded unit that has most of the current features available, and power to spare. Besides, it has a very good sound to it, and I HIGHLY recommend HK. I have owned HK since the mid 1980's and have never been disappointed. Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ALL receivers are underpowered! As long as you stay with the better brands out there and don't listen at higher volume levels you will be ok... H/K, pioneer elite, yamaha, denon, and marantz all make very good products... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Again with the cars.... Car 1) 0-60 5.9 1-100 14.9 1/4 mile 14.5@98.4 60-0 118 ft 80-0 209 ft slalom mph 67.3 fuel milage 14.8 Car 2) 0-60 6.1 0-100 14.8 1/4 mile 14.5@98.7 60-0 113 ft 80-0 203 ft slalom mph 64.6 fuel milage 17.7 Of the two, which would you rather have for your birthday? Tough choice, based on the spec sheet, I'd say it's pretty much a toss up, one is a tad faster, the other brakes a little better. But the spec sheet doesn't tell the whole story, you have to drive each one to see which you prefered. BTY, car 1 is the $21K Dodge SRT-4 Car 2 is the $98K Mercedes Benz SL500 Which one do you think is the better car now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Additionally, the following link gives you the results of Sound and Vision magazine testing of many different receivers over the years.... http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 I have one of the "entry level" Pioneers in my family room setup, which was built low-budget all the way. It is rated at 100wpc for all 5 channels, but when I hooked my watt meter to it, it started sounding bad at about 50 watts into a pair of Heresys. My high level Onkyo reciever is also rated at 105, but sounds clean until about 120 into the same speakers. The girls are not always right... sometimes quality is more important Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myriadcorp Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 HK is one of the few manufactures who rate their amp sections to what they put out. Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Insert name always boost their power output because people like yourself will look at it and say, Hey this says 120watts and this one only says 65watts. Its a marketing tactic and false information. I read a good article about this awhile back and it was very interesting. Some of these manufactures rate the equipment to a burst of power. So if it can hit 120watts for a split second they can say 120watts. Its all BS. Make sure you research the equipment you are getting. HK amps are pretty true to specs they list. Unlike all the others who lie. I wish I had that article.. I remember it saying some Denon reciever that was rated at 110 or 120 watts cant remember only did 45 watts of real power full range while driving all channels. Just be cautious of power specs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 When reading spec sheets, take what you see with a grain of salt. It is not meaningless, but not all that matters. I am running an older, cheaper Onkyo receiver than boasts 65WPC RMS, 85W dynamic power. Maybe it'll do it, I don't know. I've never pushed it that hard. I can say this, though, it doesn't weigh much at all, which means it doesn't exactly have the heftiest transformer behind it. I had an HK briefly (it had a hissing issue that not all of them have, I was just unlucky) and it weighed tons more. Plus, it had four fairly large caps in the power supply, while my Onkyo only has two. The HK boasted 55WPC RMS, but if I had to put my money on one, I'd say the HK would beat out the Onkyo in both power output and sound quality while putting out that power. It did sound VERY good, too. Very warm receiver. Try all the receivers you can, give each an open mind, and don't be caught up on how many watts it has available. Those $100 Sony's and such that boast 100WPC are LYING for the most part. You'll never get 100 clean watts out of one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 10:40:51 AM Champagne taste beer budget wrote: Again with the cars.... Car 1) 0-60 5.9 1-100 14.9 1/4 mile 14.5@98.4 60-0 118 ft 80-0 209 ft slalom mph 67.3 fuel milage 14.8 Car 2) 0-60 6.1 0-100 14.8 1/4 mile 14.5@98.7 60-0 113 ft 80-0 203 ft slalom mph 64.6 fuel milage 17.7 Of the two, which would you rather have for your birthday? Tough choice, based on the spec sheet, I'd say it's pretty much a toss up, one is a tad faster, the other brakes a little better. But the spec sheet doesn't tell the whole story, you have to drive each one to see which you prefered. BTY, car 1 is the $21K Dodge SRT-4 Car 2 is the $98K Mercedes Benz SL500 Which one do you think is the better car now? ---------------- At least the Benz isn't a screaming metal death trap Good point. Lots of stuff like that in the car world. Or, compare an EVO VIII or STi to any of the German 4-door sedans. It's all about build quality (fit and finish) and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletcherkane Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 I agree about the cars to a certain extent, but... Unlike the car, I am not sure I care how the receiver looks in my rack (garage). If they perform the same, I am not going to shell out double the money just because it looks nice. I am just concerned about performance. With a car you want a certain amount of curb appeal, and name badge goes a long way to adding to the price. I have driven a few high dollar cars which weren't worth the rims they were mounted on. I know I am just arguing for the sake of argument here, but its kinda fun. I know that an HK receiver will outperform an entry level pioneer, but they might garner a bigger market share if they advertised their product so that Joe AudioPurchaser would have a reason to take a closer look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Your comment: "but they might garner a bigger market share if they advertised their product so that Joe AudioPurchaser would have a reason to take a closer look".... How? By lying like the other mfgr's do? I mean, what EXACTLY would you expect HK to do? As many have said, they have a solid reputation, and conservatively rate. What more?? That being said, Klipsch does not do any "aggressive/misleading" advertising, and people are looking to buy speakers that were built 20-40 years ago. Again, reputation speaks! Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 The credibility established by accurately measuring a piece of equipment's capabilities and publishing those measurements instead of some better looking ones goes a long way with me. If a manufacturer is lying about their power output, how much faith to you have in the rest if the specs? I haven't got much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletcherkane Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 I agree, again, I was just starting an discussion for the sake of hearing people defend the product they love, and I wanted to hear honest opinions about the product as I am shopping. Don't hate me for raising some ires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 I would say to buy the Sony or Pioneer 100 watt per channel recievers. They have always given me good service and they work quite well. They drive Klipsch speakers very well. One of the main features I would look for is the recievers bass management controls. It is irritating to find out that you can't control the bass to each speaker, when you have fantastic full range Klipsch speakers all around in your home theater! Check out the controls for each speaker and see if you can control the bass individually. I do not have the capability now and if I have to buy again, it will be my most important buying point. Good Luck and enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 First,as most here have advised these "specs"are not what you use to make audio decisions.They are only part of the "SOUND" equation.I've owned or own many of the latest mass mrkt avrs.I've owned an HK 125,630,7200,the 7200 was the only one I really did not like(poor pre/pro section)IMO.The 630(75watts) was oustanding,easily as powerful as my Denon 3802/03(110watts) during audition,I prefered its sound. If I was gonna spend less than $500 new on an avr I'd prolly get a HK 130/135 OR the next model or two up.You can be sure there is a difference in audio and build over my Pioner 412(garage set up).Only you can decide if its worth it to your ears. Just one more note,there are several who chimed in that have much more audio knowledge than me.You would be well advised to make good use of their hard earned knowledge,good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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