Audible Nectar Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 "Watch those guys carefully. In most card counting systems, you split tens when the count approaches plus five or better." Let me tell you something: I can count the number of players on one hand (which totals exactly three) who could do this effectively, in six years of dealing casino blackjack. Card counters - at least good ones - are very rare birds, and once one is spotted/observed in a casino, just about every casino nationwide will know about him/her. I dealt to a fellow who was attending graduate level at the state university, who cleaned the casino's clock for about $114,000 ($500 max bet across three hands) in about 12 hours of play (two sessions). He was observed for two hours by casino supervisors continuously, during which he made NO MISTAKES against the basic strategy. NOT ONE. He was then approached by the casino bosses who told him that "your action is too good for us - sorry" - and a subsequent search by the state gaming folks - to make sure he wasn't getting any electronic or other help. He wasn't - it was all in his mind - and he is now banned from playing in any US casino - and many others as well (casinos have the right to refuse service to anyone). I guess the point is that I wouldn't worry too much about card counters splitting 10's at your table - card counters are so rarely allowed to play in casinos anymore (because they usually get spotted if they know what they are doing), so odds are you'll not see such a bird at your table. The only people I ever dealt to who split 10's were idiots with soon-to-be-empty wallets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Thats funny,if a casino takes everything you worked for all your/spouse life thats great and you get a free room,but if you win you're banned.Glad I've only lost $5 gambling in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 "Thats funny,if a casino takes everything you worked for all your/spouse life thats great and you get a free room,but if you win you're banned.Glad I've only lost $5 gambling in my life." Yep. That's why I always respond to this question this way: Q: How do I win in casinos? A: By not playing. Here's another one: Q: What do you call someone who knows how to play craps? A: A loser. In six years of dealing in casinos, one thing I did learn is to never sit on the other side of the table. Some of the worst gambling addicts work in casinos, so many who should know better never seem to learn. I saw so much nasty stuff in that business, I had to leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sputnik Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 ---------------- On 3/8/2005 5:48:37 PM Audible Nectar wrote: I dealt to a fellow who was attending graduate level at the state university, who cleaned the casino's clock for about $114,000 ($500 max bet across three hands) in about 12 hours of play (two sessions). He was observed for two hours by casino supervisors continuously, during which he made NO MISTAKES against the basic strategy. NOT ONE. He was then approached by the casino bosses who told him that "your action is too good for us - sorry" - and a subsequent search by the state gaming folks - to make sure he wasn't getting any electronic or other help. He wasn't - it was all in his mind - and he is now banned from playing in any US casino - and many others as well (casinos have the right to refuse service to anyone). ---------------- I hope that you didin't think that my comment about card counting was a wisecrack - I was just trying to make the point that something that may appear crazy or stupid on eBay or at a blckjack might be justified. I would agree that many people on eBay and probably many more at a blackjack table don't take the time to learn the game. I would love to hear some of your stories from 6 years of dealing. I take it that the guy in your example above wasn't even counting cards since he was flat betting and not deviating from basic strategy. I know that casinos can bar anyone for any reason, but to ban this guy for straight up play while taking money from heavy drinkers, gambling addicts, and stupid people is evil hypocrisy. I am amazed that people who have a responsible job or own a business and astutely mind their investments will plop big money down at a blackjack table with no idea of basic strategy. A dealer once told me, and I'd like to know your observation, that the majority (I forgot the exact statistic, maybe as high as 60-70%) of people who sit at a blackjack table will be ahead of the casino at some point but only something like 15% actually leave the table as winners. His source was some gaming journal and I'm not sure of the numbers but I wonder if you observed the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 "I hope that you didin't think that my comment about card counting was a wisecrack....." No, not at all. I was only trying to emphasize that the number of blackjack players who would know when it is statistically advantageous to split tens is so infinitesimal that the odds of you being seated at a table with one is about nil. In other words, if you are at a blackjack table and the player splits tens he's probably on the losing end more than the average player. He's not doing it for a logical reason with a basis in mathematics (which is what these games are, mathematics and statistics) - he is doing it for a reason that is based on poor analysis. Whether it is Ebay or the casino, the player/bidder may not be doing what is in his overall best mathematical interest, even though he/she believes otherwise. Bidding early on ebay is "showing your hand" when you may not necessarily want to. OTOH, maybe sometimes you do want to show that hand, for various reasons too. I guess that's why it's called strategy - making the game work in your own best interest without cutting your own throat/wallet in the process. As for the "basic stategy" player not deviating: He never broke from basic strategy, but was genius at pressing or pinching his bets based on favorable/unfavorable counts. The variable +/- (count) determined the amount of his bets - he played basic strategy by the book - looks less conspicuous vs. a card counter who hits hard 17 when the player knows all the big cards are spent from the shoe, and the dealer shows 10. That's ODD. A basic strategy player isn't as odd - but one who makes no mistakes in that strategy for hours and hours, and pinches and presses his bets based on counts - deadly to the casino, and harder to catch. But logic would tell you that people smart enough to do these things would most likely avoid the casinos entirely, and use thier smarts towards pursuits more profitable. Many think they are so smart, they can beat the house. You can't beat the house. The existence of 125,000 rooms in Las Vegas is proof. The successful gambler is rare - and when you do find them, they aren't playing blackjack, craps, or slots - they play poker (against other players, and NEVER against the house). And so is the completed auctions proof of the same kinds of suckers. How many times do we see threads showing high priced auctions that have no real basis in reason? Sometimes, a seller just gets lucky. And lets face it, there can only be one buyer of the item. There will be many "losers". Playing the game of Ebay requires understanding the mathematics and strategy you choose to play. When playing in a casino, or Ebay, you cannot tell others how to play. You can either take a seat, or walk away from the table. The casino and Ebay are sellers markets. My best Ebay friend (as a buyer)? BUY IT NOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sputnik Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 ---------------- On 3/8/2005 10:51:02 PM Audible Nectar wrote: Bidding early on ebay is "showing your hand" when you may not necessarily want to. OTOH, maybe sometimes you do want to show that hand, for various reasons too. I guess that's why it's called strategy - making the game work in your own best interest without cutting your own throat/wallet in the process. And so is the completed auctions proof of the same kinds of suckers. How many times do we see threads showing high priced auctions that have no real basis in reason? Sometimes, a seller just gets lucky. And lets face it, there can only be one buyer of the item. There will be many "losers". Playing the game of Ebay requires understanding the mathematics and strategy you choose to play. When playing in a casino, or Ebay, you cannot tell others how to play. You can either take a seat, or walk away from the table. The casino and Ebay are sellers markets. My best Ebay friend (as a buyer)? BUY IT NOW. ---------------- That's the finest analysis of eBay that I've ever heard. Part casino, part bazaar and sometimes bizarre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WS65711 Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 ---------------- On 3/8/2005 10:51:02 PM Audible Nectar wrote: Bidding early on ebay is "showing your hand" when you may not necessarily want to. OTOH, maybe sometimes you do want to show that hand, for various reasons too. I guess that's why it's called strategy - making the game work in your own best interest without cutting your own throat/wallet in the process. ---------------- It's not really "showing your hand". It's simply showing that you're in the game. With the proxy bidding, no one but you knows what your max bid is. No one but you knows how long you will be "in the game". At whatever point your max bid becomes outbid, it makes no difference. At that point, it was more than you wanted to pay anyway. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Hmmmm. Somehow this subject sounds vaguely familiar.It's needs maxg's touch, as he answered this question so logical and intellectual.....Where are you oh greek god of wisdom..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheis Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 This discussion reminds me of the casino billboards I see on the drive up to Tahoe when I go skiing. The casinos are BRAGGING that their slots have a 97% payback. That means, the BEST you are going to do is lose 3 cents of every dollar. They even tell you up front. What a deal. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rex Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 ---------------- On 3/11/2005 4:50:10 AM jheis wrote: This discussion reminds me of the casino billboards I see on the drive up to Tahoe when I go skiing. The casinos are BRAGGING that their slots have a 97% payback. That means, the BEST you are going to do is lose 3 cents of every dollar. They even tell you up front. What a deal. James ---------------- Now, that's not exactly right... That is a composite number across all the winners and all of the losers. Anyone going to gamble should know they have an extremely small chance of winning and a much greater chance of losing. That is why if I ever leave those establishments at break even or better then I know I have done very well!! I was always happy leaving Palace Station in Vegas but seldom happy leaving any of the bigger name casinos, regardless of their 97% or more payback posted. It always seemed to me some casinos paid smaller pots but in greater numbers while others paid larger pots but in smaller numbers. I was always most comfortable in the former... D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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