sfogg Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 " But were talking about Heritage speakers aren't we?" Does the bass from a Cornwall sound the same as from a La Scala or a K'Horn? " When someone compares a tube amplifier to a SS amp in the bass department I instantly figure they to like the "LIVE" real bass that I also love so a approach the subject with this preconceived notion." That was the point, what if your preconceived notion is wrong for the person asking the question? How do you define 'live' bass? Is it amplified or acoustic? Live bass is tough to measure up against since the venue size is *so* much larger there are much less issues with resonances (and therefor also less issues with peaks and nulls). We also perceive bass differently in a real hall compared to in our room because of the way we hear and how the bass reacts in both places. Bass in a hall can sound much more enveloping then in a typical listening room. And of course if the 'live' reference is outdoors the perception changes again and should sound very tight and have little overhang. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Mark, "Coherence, clarity, smoothness and low distortion will contribute far more to a believable experience - I think." Those are all very important too. But I think bass is pretty important as well. Listening to a pair of K'Horns high passed at 100hz is going to be a very different experience then letting them run full range. "If it's something like a pipe organ, fergetaboutit, you ain't going to reproduce that with a woofer anyway." Thats what *good* subs (plural...stereo bass is important down to about 40hz) are for. "They generally have huge resonance points somewhere that create a "boom" or standing wave somewhere in the LF spectrum. Bass energy excites 2X4 walls, moves windows, resonates speaker cabinets, shakes floors - all bad things for the clarity of sound." Very good points. The resonances in the room also cause ringing for certain notes that smear the detail/clarity of the system while those notes are ringing for longer then they should be. That hides detail in the system. A couple of rooms ago I had a drop ceiling in the room my system was in. There was nothing more 'artifical' sounding to me then hearing that thing rattling along with the bass in the music. Having a dedicated room that was built to be *solid* was a huge improvement. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D0N Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 ---------------- On 3/9/2005 7:17:42 AM fgarib wrote: ---------------- in order to get the true rich sound, You're after something that just doesn't exist. It's a fable IMO. The warm rich sound of tubes LOL! There's a reason the industry went from tubes to SS gear. You can go backwards to tubes if you want but forget about this audio awakening/nirvana that tubies keep telling you you're gonna hear. It's a myth. I've bought, used and sold over 1000 different pieces of audio gear on ebay. I've auditioned more than my share of SS and tube gear. In my search for this rich warm tube sound that tubies keep telling everyone they're missing...I had craig rebuild a scott 340b for me. I hooked it up but there were no angels singing, no warm feelings rushing into my ears, no sonic awakening when connected to my Khorns. I quickly sold it on ebay. I could have switched back to a cheap used amp and not have heard a difference. What I find comical is that when you finally do hear tubes for yourself and you're not really impressed as you've been led to believe you should be, all the tubies will say it's because of a certain component, the room size, the moon phase, oceans tide or the time of day. Sorry tubies. I don't agree tubes are any better than SS on Klipsch or any other speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Julian Hisrch Lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 I guess I am in the hearing is believing camp too. I have never heard a tube system with Klipsch Heritage but not for a lack of not wanting too. So I cannot comment either way, but I have heard a number of SS amps that I thought sounded really good with them. There is just no one easily accessible to me that has a decent setup for me to audition to sway me. My brother in law Gilbert seemed to be very impressed now that he has gone to the Dark side. He went full bore though - WOW! I just have a tough time believing it can really be that much better than running my two $5000 Ultra rare DBX BX1's that run Class A up to about 30 watts. So I guess hearing is believing. I am going to try to make the '05 Pilgrimage so maybe I will finally get my chance to hear a properly set up tube system on some big Heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAX616 Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 I had the experience of listening to elton john songs like Levon and other softer songs with the benefit of an 18" LR36 cerwin vega earthquake folded horn long throw sub. That delivered ars dropping chest thumping bass.That added a new dimension to the music I had heard on previous occasions. The long throw is wrong for a basement rooms it is designed to penetrate crowds. A crown K2 has 500 watts per channel and a dampening factor of 3000 look it up.I can get one for about $1500.00. You will not get the same power or speaker handling from tubes at that price.Most bass players req at least twice the rated power of their speaker, it's called head room. Now I am not saying that tubes don't generate good bass for the average listening room, 11 watt fischers are good for smaller rooms and certain music. In all fairness I have not had the oppurtunity to listen to 60 watts per channel from craigs mk111's (Dynaco Mark III's all redesigned and upgraded )yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 ---------------- On 3/9/2005 2:04:35 PM D0N wrote: .................. There's a reason the industry went from tubes to SS gear. You can go backwards to tubes if you want but forget about this audio awakening/nirvana that tubies keep telling you you're gonna hear. .................... It's a myth. ..................... Sorry tubies. I don't agree tubes are any better than SS on Klipsch or any other speakers. ---------------- Don, The reason industry went SS is cost and "the new thing"! They could sell to many more people thus makeing more money! The first years of SS gear sounds like CRA##! They didn't sell all those units for the sound they made, they sold them because they were cheeper, used less power and made less heat, not to mention it was the "new" thing! There really IS a difference in the sound of SS and tubes! If your ears are not good enough to hear it or you choose to have SS over tubes, Ok, but those are your choices and you are welcome to whatever sounds great to you. I'm sorry you were not able to hear the difference. Thats the way it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 "A crown K2 has 500 watts per channel and a dampening factor of 3000 look it up.I can get one for about $1500.00." Can get them cheaper then that on occasion, or at least you used to be able to. Crown originally rated them at something like below 100hz the damping factor was 10,000:1. IOW, they have an extremely low output impedance. They are *fantastic* subwoofer amps, it is what I use on my subs. In my old system with far less efficienct speakers it is also what I used for my mains. I am a big fan of those amps, they do just about everything right IMO. Great sound quality, can drive just about any load, has enourmous amounts of power, 2u in height, not very heavy, doesn't put out much heat, sealed enclosures and doesn't misbehave at all (turn on transients, fan cooling, noise...etc..etc..). From everything I've seen they are extremely reliable amps too. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Mark, "I think most room problems I've had were caused by too much total bass energy." Certainly possible. I've been running with subs for so long I tend to forget not everyone can as easily tune the bass level in the room to the rest of the spectrum. " Special rooms - that IS the answer as best I can tell. I've been mostly totally dissatisfied with the past few rooms I've had available. " And unfortunatly it is, by far, the hardest upgrade someone can make. The differences between rooms swamps just about everything else as far as differences between amps and such. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Mark, I think you may need to get out more. For instance I was at a club Friday night that is renowned for its excellent sound system with the touring top rock bands. The bass in this place absolutely shakes the building and start and stops as it should no way the bass in this place doesn't hit at least 35Hz of course it doesn't hurt when the owner of the club is a musician. Incredible place for sure but you wouldn't want to visit it often ear damage would surely be the result. Shawn, I still really do not get your point. Are you just typing to type Everything your mentioning is pretty well a known variable that will all suffer from but anyway. Of course correct bass sounds different to every person. There are a gazillion kids out there that think there Boom, Boom shack rattle bass coming from the cars is the real thing. When I speak of bass I am always talking about amplified bass at a concert or club this is the sound I strive for and grew up spending countless wasted hours enjoying (oh how I long for the careless days). Isn't this forum about everyone sharing there opinions and experiences? That was the point, what if your preconceived notion is wrong for the person asking the question? So what if it is were sharing opinion and experienced are we not? Is this a court of law? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 There are some MC-30's around TO, but I haven't been checking to see if they are up for sale. Mine, most certainly are not, but I live in the right area, just east of Toronto. It sounds as if something is not right about the combination, either the speakers, or as likely tubes or capacitors. The power tubes and smaller ones can make quite a difference in the sound. The 6L6's that came with my MC-30 were flat and lifeless. With several changes, the sound really improved. If you have to, put the MC-30 with the SS amp. It may not be ideal, but you have half the package, now just save up for a good tube preamp. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day. Where in Toronto are you going to be in April? Send me an email, maybe we can arrange an audition one night. Mc-30's, a Peach and Cornwalls (not a bad combination). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 You mean like Parts Express has the K2 for $1399? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 ---------------- On 3/9/2005 2:24:40 PM DAX616 wrote: I had the experience of listening to elton john songs like Levon and other softer songs with the benefit of an 18" LR36 cerwin vega earthquake folded horn long throw sub. That delivered ars dropping chest thumping bass.That added a new dimension to the music I had heard on previous occasions. The long throw is wrong for a basement rooms it is designed to penetrate crowds. A crown K2 has 500 watts per channel and a dampening factor of 3000 look it up.I can get one for about $1500.00. You will not get the same power or speaker handling from tubes at that price.Most bass players req at least twice the rated power of their speaker, it's called head room. Now I am not saying that tubes don't generate good bass for the average listening room, 11 watt fischers are good for smaller rooms and certain music. In all fairness I have not had the oppurtunity to listen to 60 watts per channel from craigs mk111's yet.---------------- Small correction my amps are not Mark III's while they share some traits with a Mark III (mostly transformers designed to meet and exceed the Mark III type and winding method) Litterally no other part of the circuit is even remotely similar to a original Dynaco Mark III not even close. Yes I can modify a original set of Merk III's to preform fairly close but the is a measurable difference that is audible especially when you push em hard. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 Craig, I'm curious. When someone gets two of your amps, do they have a SET? Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 ---------------- On 3/9/2005 2:04:35 PM D0N wrote: ---------------- On 3/9/2005 7:17:42 AM fgarib wrote: ---------------- in order to get the true rich sound, You're after something that just doesn't exist. It's a fable IMO. The warm rich sound of tubes LOL! There's a reason the industry went from tubes to SS gear. You can go backwards to tubes if you want but forget about this audio awakening/nirvana that tubies keep telling you you're gonna hear. It's a myth. I've bought, used and sold over 1000 different pieces of audio gear on ebay. I've auditioned more than my share of SS and tube gear. In my search for this rich warm tube sound that tubies keep telling everyone they're missing...I had craig rebuild a scott 340b for me. I hooked it up but there were no angels singing, no warm feelings rushing into my ears, no sonic awakening when connected to my Khorns. I quickly sold it on ebay. I could have switched back to a cheap used amp and not have heard a difference. What I find comical is that when you finally do hear tubes for yourself and you're not really impressed as you've been led to believe you should be, all the tubies will say it's because of a certain component, the room size, the moon phase, oceans tide or the time of day. Sorry tubies. I don't agree tubes are any better than SS on Klipsch or any other speakers. ---------------- Don, this spoken from a man that actually used a pair of Dynaco 400 bridge to 400 watts a channel on his Khorn's in a 4'X4' closet. You really can be ridicules sometimes. Don really what you think means absolutely nothing to anyone around here. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 ---------------- On 3/9/2005 10:47:00 PM 3dzapper wrote: Craig, I'm curious. When someone gets two of your amps, do they have a SET? Rick ---------------- Nope but they are all SET Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgarib Posted March 10, 2005 Author Share Posted March 10, 2005 Boys, Thanks for the tons of input... (although, I'm not quite sure if all of it answers my questions, really!) I'm going to try to convince the guy to let me bring them over on Sunday. Hook them up to my SS pre and let loose! The general feeling that I'm getting from all of you is that tube pre is definitely better, but I'll probably still enjoy SS until I can get it. However, this nagging feeling will still remain that DON may just be right. If I do get it, which I probably will (because you just can't find these damn things in Pakistan), I'll probably love it... but that pinch will be way down there somewhere! Let's see... more on this later! What offer should I give the guy? -F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 "The general feeling that I'm getting from all of you is that tube pre is definitely better, but I'll probably still enjoy SS until I can get it." Different rather than better. Better is in the ears of the listener and nowhere else. Case in point. When I first bought Heresy's I tried them with a Yamaha receiver I had at the time: "And now Marvo the Magnificent will demonstrate sawing a woman in half with the sound of his audio system." Not that it was a hard sound or anything ...thing is - I met a guy the other day who has Heresy's like mine. He too shopped around for ages trying to find the right amp for them - until he found a Yamaha receiver that gave him EXACTLY the sound he was looking for. He got very confused when I started to refer to him as M the M. Different strokes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgarib Posted March 10, 2005 Author Share Posted March 10, 2005 ---------------- He got very confused when I started to refer to him as M the M. Different strokes... ---------------- Max, Too funny!! but seriously now... I can't seem to take a small risk with tube sound living here. No low price Dynacos and Eicos available here. I think I'm just going to jump the gun, buy them and then pray that I love love love them. If I go in with that attitude, there's very little chance that I won't like them! -F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 If you DON'T like them, sell them! MC-30's are easy to resell. If your seller would let you hear them on your speakers, that would help. But if the price is right, you could buy them at no risk to you - especially if they are working and all original internal parts (highest resale value). Good condition MC-30 pairs go for $1200-1800 - and that's a conservative figure. Exceptional pairs can sell for more. McIntosh vintage gears truly draw a worldwide market interest when posted for sale. McIntosh is a good investment! That should help in your risk assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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