tubes or ss?

[minn_male42]

it does all come down to your style of listening

if you listen to compressed music with little dynamic range, a low powered amp might very well work in your situation

but try to use the same low powered amp with very dynamic music/soundtracks and you will experience more than a few problems

dynamic soundtracks/music can easily contain fast transient peaks that require 10 to 20 times the average power output during the rest of the program... listening to your music at 1 watt (for example) as your average level.... the peaks can easily reach 20 watts or more

no amp is perfect.... but an amp that cannot handle extreme dynamic peaks is one that would not be welcome in my system

and for SPL calculators.... the following is one that takes room boundary effects, number of speakers, and listening position distance....

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

[NOSValves]

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On 4/17/2005 9:33:50 PM codhead wrote:

----------------

On 4/17/2005 5:25:22 PM DeanG wrote:

I'm listening to Pink Floyd Live...on my 3 watt amp and Heresys as I'm writing this. I just missed a phone call, as I did not hear it ring from 6 feet away...

You obviously have hearing damage. You might want to get that checked.(1)

I'm kind of amazed by some of the comments in this thread. To some, not even an Audio Note Ongaku has what it takes to properly drive Klipschorns. To me, this is just silly.

I love $100,000 SET amplifiers. Does it have more than 20 parts?(2)

So let's see... my amp and speakers are not compatable...

I attached the Heresy impedance curve. Go to Google and type in "benign impedance curve". You can also shoot the plot to manufacturers of SET amps and ask if a speaker with that curve is acceptable to run with their amp.(3)

"...I don't care about accurate music reproduction..."

I didn't say that.(4)

"...my system is not capable of reproducing details in the music..."

I didn't say that.(5)

"...and my 3 watts is probably only 1/4 of 1 watt."

Dynamic peaks are typically 6db to 20db higher than steady state. You do the math, I've already done my math homework for the day. SET amps have a soft clipping characteristic, but it's still clipping, and constitutes distortion.(6)

And no one is really "against" low-powered amps. Can you believe this?

Hard to believe isn't it? I don't give a hoot what you use. It's your system.(6a)

"Heh-heh, heh-heh. Hey, Beavis - check out that dork with the SET amp. Heh-heh, heh-heh." "Yeah, he can't listen to Slayer at, uh, 110dB."

Well, you can't.(7)

http://www.crownaudio.com/apps_htm/designtools/elect-pwr-req.htm

"In the calculators Peak Headroom field, enter 6 dB for rock music that is compressed or limited, or enter 20 to 25 dB for uncompressed live music. If you can live with some short-term clipping which may be inaudible, enter 10 to 15 dB.(8)"

----------------

(1) When you can't accept that a small amp can generate a decent amount of sound, it's always best to make fun of the other guy's hearing.

(2) Everyone knows an amplifier with a higher parts count sounds better. Even when comparing it with one of the world's best high-powered SET amps, connected to one of the world's most efficient speakers.

(3) Since a good portion of this thread relates to someones Decware purchase, it's only fair to note that yes, they do recommend Klipsch speakers. I would assume that the comment "All" next to Klipsch would include the Heresy. Of course, your amplifier company probably does not.

(4) "Of course, if you don't care about flat response from your amplifier, it doesn't matter."

(5) I agree - there are other posts.

(6) Can an amplifier reproduce short-term peaks in excess of it's rated power? I'm proud of you for completing your math homework - tomorrow is a school day. Yes, even if it's inaudiable, it's still distortion.

(6a) Hoots are a rare commodity, which should only be given away after much careful thought.

(7) I can get 110dB out of my main system. Since my hearing must be bad already, I'd better not tempt fate. Don't want to end up like that old geeser on the Belltone commercial - Huh? What?

(8) One major manufacturer claims 2000 watts is not enough to avoid clipping, so we all probably live with this to some degree. It's what we perceive at the receiving end that counts.

I'm kind of surprised at the way you jumped on the Heresy as being such a bad match for a SET amp. While you can certainly make a good argument on paper as to why this is the case, that same argument falls on (no pun intended) deaf ears after listening to this combination. A similar argument could be made for the amount of distortion generated by most SET amps. Something that looks that bad on paper certainly should not sound good.

My Abbys with their nice flat (impedance curve) Foxtex drivers, are by your definition an ideal match for SET amps. While they may make my output transformers very happy, the same can't be said for my ears.

In this thread, you've managed to give the thumbs down to an amplifier with which you have no experience, and to an amplifier/speaker combination which sounds very good in practice. IMHO, most of your statements seem centered around justifying the type of equipment you prefer, and lack objectivity for someone considering another path (i.e. low power).

----------------

Does your forum name ginving us some kind oif hint?

(7) I can get 110dB out of my main system. Since my hearing must be bad already, I'd better not tempt fate. Don't want to end up like that old geeser on the Belltone commercial - Huh? What?

With the amplifiers you have listed in your system profile there is no way I would stay in the room to hear them at 110dB! I'm sure you can hit it but who the hell would want too? Total and utter clipped distortion is a ugly thing even with soft clipping SET amplifiers. It's ridicules statements like this that bring out the worst in us people that experience good clean power at higher levels. SET has its strengths but complex music or higher levels is definitely not its strong points.

Craig

[Deang]

(1) When you can't accept that a small amp can generate a decent amount of sound, it's always best to make fun of the other guy's hearing.

Hey, you're the one that said you couldn't hear your phone ringing six feet away. I had the Wright's on my Klipschorns. There is no way in hell I wouldn't have been able to hear my phone ringing from six feet away. You're either half deaf or can't tell when you're listening to distortion.

(2) Everyone knows an amplifier with a higher parts count sounds better. Even when comparing it with one of the world's best high-powered SET amps, connected to one of the world's most efficient speakers.

Some SET amps are insanely overpriced, and I think that $90,000 unit qualifies. My comment had nothing to do with the relationship between parts count and quality of sound.

(3) Since a good portion of this thread relates to someones Decware purchase, it's only fair to note that yes, they do recommend Klipsch speakers. I would assume that the comment "All" next to Klipsch would include the Heresy. Of course, your amplifier company probably does not.

You're missing the point and evading the challenge. SET amps will track impedance if impedance isn't benign. So, non-flat response from the amp. It's a fact, and everyone seems to know it except you and Deckert.

(4) "Of course, if you don't care about flat response from your amplifier, it doesn't matter."

So which did I say? That you might not care about flat response from your amplifier, or that you didn't care about quality sound. Which is it?

(5) I agree - there are other posts.

I'm sure you're right.

(6) Can an amplifier reproduce short-term peaks in excess of it's rated power?

Well, let me ask you this. You have your amp cranking away at 3.5 watts continuous -- how much do you have left for headroom? Remember, you're in Class A.

I'm proud of you for completing your math homework - tomorrow is a school day. Yes, even if it's inaudiable, it's still distortion.

Yeah, I'm working pretty hard at it. Someday I'll be as smart as you.

(7) I can get 110dB out of my main system. Since my hearing must be bad already, I'd better not tempt fate. Don't want to end up like that old geeser on the Belltone commercial - Huh? What?

So, you can play Slayer after all.

(8) One major manufacturer claims 2000 watts is not enough to avoid clipping, so we all probably live with this to some degree. It's what we perceive at the receiving end that counts.

Do I have to teach you how to use a calculator too. What numbers were you punching into that thing!?

In this thread, you've managed to give the thumbs down to an amplifier with which you have no experience, and to an amplifier/speaker combination which sounds very good in practice.

I know, I really need more experience.

IMHO, most of your statements seem centered around justifying the type of equipment you prefer, and lack objectivity for someone considering another path (i.e. low power).

Well, yes, it does seem that way.

[codhead]

[Painful Reality]

It has been a while...

[Deang]

LOL, I know, and so couldn't resist!

[NOSValves]

It has hasn't it

[NOSValves]

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On 4/18/2005 1:27:49 AM codhead wrote

Craig,

Sorry for bringing out the worst in you. I've got a pair of big SS amps too (but I like the little SETs so much, I really hate to admit a thing like that). I've even got a turntable - but don't tell anyone.

----------------

Cod,

Absolutely nothing wrong with liking your SET amplifier but trying to act like it will shake the earth with 110dB blast is just ridicules. It takes some serous power to hit those levels cleanly even in a moderate sized room with Klipsch speakers. I have a solid 6 watt SET amplifier and its good to about 95dB with my Lascalas at best before I hear distortion and clipping in a 12' X 12' area. Up to these levels it sounds very good. The thing with SET is that many amps don't sound good to me at any volume I had a 300B amp here that was suppose to be 15 watts from a very reputable company and I thought the thing sounded like sh!t at any volume pretty surprising for $5000. I heard a 6C33-B based SET amp (18 watts) last weekend that sounded very good to a point then it just turned to mush but this was driving 93dB speakers. These same speakers with my 60 watt amps would reach blistering levels cleanly.

Jeff,

By the way have you ever tinkered with the 6C33-B and if so what is your thoughts?

Craig

[ben.]

Relax, guys. He just needs a bigger phone, and horn-loading would help, too.

[Erik Mandaville]

sberger:

What you see happening has been the story here -- seemingly forever. I've been told how I have ruined my system, as well. Oddly, it sounds more present, transparent, and REAL than it ever has; and this is doubtless an indication that I need to get my hearing checked, as well.

You did a smart thing in making a protected investment with this amp, because you already indicated many words ago that you can get your money back if it doesn't work out for you.

Please let me submit that the ONLY thing that matters in this is what you find with the Taboo once you try it for yourself, in your own room, with your own music. If it doesn't work out, you will at least have the comfort of knowing you made the effort to try -- and worked with a company that's fair enough to let you have your money back after a month if you don't care for the sound.

If you do find you might prefer something else, I can tell you without hesitation that you will not be alone in that respect -- especially in terms of the number of amplifiers that have been purchased and resold by some of the contributors of this thread. If you do send it back to Decware for a refund, I respect the fact that you did so based on your own experience with it rather than because of the opinion of someone on this forum (WHO HASN'T EVEN HEARD IT!) Telling you it was a mistake right after you bought it was sort of like telling a first time sky diver that, having done a good job hopping out of the plane, it probably would have been a good idea to have remembered the parachute. Fortunately, your amp has its own built-in, back up chute in the forum of a refund after 30 days. Smart!

Erik

[Painful Reality]

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On 4/18/2005 10:01:13 AM NOSValves wrote:

Jeff,

By the way have you ever tinkered with the 6C33-B and if so what is your thoughts?

----------------

It is on the wish list along with a GM70 amp. The 6C33 is interesting because it works at a relatively low voltage but plenty of current. So you can pull out a 15-17W without having to play in the 1000V B+.

Other thing that is cool about this tube is the ultra low Rp. In a parafeed configuration, you can use a low inductance value plate choke and still have good bass. Drawback is that not too many OPT exist for this tube. Of course MagneQuest have one...

Only problem I see is that the heater current is rather high and you'll need to find good NOS tube socket from the russian military. The generic chinese silver plated variety won't be happy and plating will simply "burn" after a while.

On the sonic, one of the best SET amp I've heard, the Lamm ML2 uses such a tube.

[mike stehr]

"I heard a 6C33-B based SET amp (18 watts) last weekend that sounded very good to a point then it just turned to mush but this was driving 93dB speakers."

Was it that Almarro amplifier?

The wood base on that thing is awesome......

I visited a guy who has two Adire audio 15" Tumult subwoofers, in 7 foot cabinets ported to 16 Hz.

The visit was about how loud the subs could get using a TermLab SPL meter.

He was using a Outlaw ICBM crossover with two Peavey 2500 watt Pro-sound amps.

It was a average sized living room. He mustered 125 decibels on the termlab meter from about eight feet at 20,25 Hz.

133 Db at the port of one of them.

He had to literally clip the amps real hard to do that. The Tumults were getting beaten rather badly, he'd run them up until the Tinsel leads starting smacking the spiders and then back off.

That was to get 125 Decibels at 20, 25 Hz.

Now a SET amp playing through Klipsch speakers doing 110 decibels? I doubt if I could get 95, before it pinches.

That ain't the way to listen to a triode amp.

You listen to music with a triode amp, not rock the Casba.

Talk about defeating the purpose.....

SET on my PP and lick me......

[sberger]

man you guys talk about listening at 110 db. what kind of personal lives do you have, or are you all well of enough to have sound proofed listening rooms? one of the reasons that a se amp appeals to me is that i like listening to music these days. i spent the 70's and 80's getting my ears exposed to some very loud sounds as a roadie. it was a blast(pun intended) but my days of listening to ac/dc or aerosmith are basically over. and even when i do, it's not at earth shattering levels. i listen to a lot of acoustic jazz, blues, etc. no soundtracks, no classical, no opera. when i do listen to rock'n'roll, i'm really more interested in the nuances of it, and not sheer volume. maybe i should have made all these points originally. with my sim audio(70 wpc) and nad(130 wpc) i normally listen at pretty reasonable levels, and it's my belief that these amps, at lower volumes, just aren't taking advantage of the heresy's efficiency. don't get me wrong, the heresy's sound real good anyway. but as erik has so aptly pleaded in my favor, i just want to see what i'm possibly missing, having never explored that territory before.

but i gotta admit, i love your passion.

[minn_male42]

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On 4/18/2005 8:19:58 PM sberger wrote:

man you guys talk about listening at 110 db. what kind of personal lives do you have, or are you all well of enough to have sound proofed listening rooms? one of the reasons that a se amp appeals to me is that i like listening to music these days. i spent the 70's and 80's getting my ears exposed to some very loud sounds as a roadie. it was a blast(pun intended) but my days of listening to ac/dc or aerosmith are basically over. and even when i do, it's not at earth shattering levels. i listen to a lot of acoustic jazz, blues, etc. no soundtracks, no classical, no opera. when i do listen to rock'n'roll, i'm really more interested in the nuances of it, and not sheer volume. maybe i should have made all these points originally. with my sim audio(70 wpc) and nad(130 wpc) i normally listen at pretty reasonable levels, and it's my belief that these amps, at lower volumes, just aren't taking advantage of the heresy's efficiency. don't get me wrong, the heresy's sound real good anyway. but as erik has so aptly pleaded in my favor, i just want to see what i'm possibly missing, having never explored that territory before.

but i gotta admit, i love your passion.

----------------

it's not about "listening at 110 db"

is IS all about the headroom when you are listening to dynamic music or trying to fill up a large room with sound

in your case - most rock 'n' roll is compressed and contains little in the way of large dynamics.... you can probably get away with alot less power than more dynamic music requires

[codhead]

[Deang]

To me, the little 2A3 will put out a very respectable amount of sound in a small room with the Heresys ... I know there are a lot of people who snicker when you use "loud" and "2A3" in the same sentence.

I consider 95db "loud", and that's about where my "loud" sessions fall. 100db is damn loud, and I'll do a song or two like that back to back every once in while. At 100db steady state, (with most of my Rock CD's), the meter will bounce into the 105+db area on peaks. Of course, a meter doesn't react fast enough to give a true peak reading. I think Craig does about the same, and we're really not the exteme headbanger types some think we are. Most of my listening is done between 90 and 95db -- comfortably loud -- enough to energize the listening area.

Russ said, "It's not about listening at 110 db, it IS all about the headroom when you are listening to dynamic music or trying to fill up a large room with sound." This is really all I was trying to say. 95db from a 3 watt amp just doesn't have anywhere the dynamic presentation that the same 95db does from a more powerful amplifer. There is no question that a 2A3 amplifer "will put out a very respectable amount of sound in a small room." I said a clean 90db or so with Heresy's, which is loud enough, and leaves enough headroom to cleanly handle transients.

I should have offered a better response with my original post, but this thing has been kicked around here so many times in the past I just didn't have the energy for it. In the end, I just feel the average listener just stepping into the tube world should start out with something that can decently handle most things thrown at it -- and I don't think low powered amps are the best choice for this. Craig and myself have both collected a nice string of emails over time from people who tried them, and then couldn't get the things out of their systems fast enough. It took me a long time to figure this out, but if you like to kick back with a glass of wine and goofy slippers -- then SET is definitely your kind of amp. If you drink beer -- go the push-pull route.

[codhead]

[sberger]

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On 4/18/2005 9:14:20 PM DeanG wrote:

It took me a long time to figure this out, but if you like to kick back with a glass of wine and goofy slippers -- then SET is definitely your kind of amp. If you drink beer -- go the push-pull route.

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif">

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ha! well, we'll see. i like wine, slippers, bud, and jack. sometimes all in the same night. let's see if i can break your mold. the challenge is on.

[tillmbil]

Very interesting read. Codhead, I really like your style in that you never lost control and for that reason this thread has been very civil.

Set amps--just haven't bit on those yet. It does concern me when some of you say ignore the facts, figures and information from articles like those presented and go with your ears. Then we will turn around and say buy an amp because it has good specs. It seems the only amps that should be bought with a few parts with poor specs are set amps. Just an outsider's view.

I can tell you that the Yamaha M80's you mention at 90dbs have way more bass slam and over all sound quality than my newer 85wpc Yammie...go figure.

I prefer tubes to SS, and more watts to less...set amps aside. My MC240 sounded better than my St70, and my VRD's sound better than the MC240. As noted by all listeners/visitors. The visitors did have claim to musical knowledge,,,one Florida Orchestra Musician...one band member...and one wannabe band member. friends of course.

[Klipschfoot]

Why doesn't Craig send one of his VRDs to 6moons for serious review? I heard the mod-ed Dyna IIIs at Gary's and I believe that if the VRD bests it, we should see some throwdown in the the hoity-toity audio circles. Let's hear another one for Michigan.