Blackmesa Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Tubes vs Solid State is analigous to Gemeinschaft vs. Gesellschaft There is nothing a fine digital amp cant do that a tube can including distorting the sound to make it feel warmif thats what you really want. Let the flames begin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 ---------------- On 5/31/2005 4:34:43 AM Blackmesa wrote: There is nothing a fine digital amp cant do that a tube can including distorting the sound to make it feel warmif thats what you really want. --------------- Well said! One could argue that many esoteric amplifier's 'sound' signature is actually the result of some clever engineering. One could also argue that certain amplifier design limitations have been turned into virtues by clever marketing. All things being equal, why should a tube amplifier sound any different to a solid state amplifier. Can a solid state design sound like a tube design? Of course it can. EDIT: Sorry, Blackmesa. I responded to your post too soon. As you were editing it in fact. I liked your original post. You should leave it intact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Whatever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Probably the best reasonably priced tube integrated amplifier I've heard to date is the Audio Research VSi55. Featuring 4 KT88 tubes, punching out around 60 watts per channel. This amp can drive anything and has bass to die for. I heard this amplifier driving a pair of Wilson Audio Sophias and this very combination has been discussed in The Absolute Sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Sberger: I'm glad this has worked out in a good way, and that you're happy with your new amplifier. Something else you mentioned caught my attention: "maybe the bottlehead foreplay pre has a lot of gain" If I can offer a thought on this -- it may not be that the preamp has too much gain (although it could very well be more than you really need), but that the input sensitivity is very high. That characteristic was not uncommon with the Foreplay, and most described the problem, as I did with mine way-back-when, as sort of 'hypersensitive volume controls'. The slightest rotation to the right would nearly bring the walls down. However, there are a number of things that can be done to help bring that under control. The value of the stock potentiometers is 100K ohms. The higher that value, the greater the sensitivity (if the potentiometer is what is establishing the input impedance of the component). If you think you are getting enough use of the controls, than just leave it. If not, I can suggest a couple of easy things to try -- the first of which would be to use a plug-in, inline attenuator on the INPUT to the preamp rather than the output. For example, if the volume control is 100K ohms, using a series resistor of the same value on the input of the preamp will pad the gain down a fe dbs. It's also fairly simple to install small trimmer pots on the input, which once set, can be left. You're happy with your purchase, and enjoy what you're now hearing for yourself. There is nothing else that matters. Have fun! Erik edit: Sberger: Doesn't the Taboo have a volume control already on it? You could just use that to pad down the overall gain of your system. It should do the trick just fine (I'm sure you're probably already doing this. I just mentioned it because you brought up the gain of the Foreplay.) E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted May 31, 2005 Author Share Posted May 31, 2005 ---------------- On 5/31/2005 5:50:35 AM Erik Mandaville wrote: Sberger: I'm glad this has worked out in a good way, and that you're happy with your new amplifier. Something else you mentioned caught my attention: "maybe the bottlehead foreplay pre has a lot of gain" If I can offer a thought on this -- it may not be that the preamp has too much gain (although it could very well be more than you really need), but that the input sensitivity is very high. That characteristic was not uncommon with the Foreplay, and most described the problem, as I did with mine way-back-when, as sort of 'hypersensitive volume controls'. The slightest rotation to the right would nearly bring the walls down. However, there are a number of things that can be done to help bring that under control. The value of the stock potentiometers is 100K ohms. The higher that value, the greater the sensitivity (if the potentiometer is what is establishing the input impedance of the component). If you think you are getting enough use of the controls, than just leave it. If not, I can suggest a couple of easy things to try -- the first of which would be to use a plug-in, inline attenuator on the INPUT to the preamp rather than the output. For example, if the volume control is 100K ohms, using a series resistor of the same value on the input of the preamp will pad the gain down a fe dbs. It's also fairly simple to install small trimmer pots on the input, which once set, can be left. You're happy with your purchase, and enjoy what you're now hearing for yourself. There is nothing else that matters. Have fun! Erik edit: Sberger: Doesn't the Taboo have a volume control already on it? You could just use that to pad down the overall gain of your system. It should do the trick just fine (I'm sure you're probably already doing this. I just mentioned it because you brought up the gain of the Foreplay.) E ---------------- erik, my foreplay originally had the sweet whispers attenuator, but it was replaced with a Goldpoint 24 step attenuator with vishay dale resistors and a caddock 132 resistor in the shunt position. i usually leave it wide open with the gain on the taboo at 2 oclock or so when i want to listen loud. plenty of punch. it's all relative. but it is amusing how there is a school of thought by some here that it's impossible to get accurate power from a low output tube amp. thankfully, mr. klipsch thought differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 ---------------- On 5/31/2005 10:04:51 AM sberger wrote: but it is amusing how there is a school of thought by some here that it's impossible to get accurate power from a low output tube amp. thankfully, mr. klipsch thought differently. ---------------- Mr. Klipsch recommended a minimum of 20 watts per channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke_in_KC Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Mr. Klipsch recommended a minimum of 20 watts per channel. ---------------- Which is, of course, relatively significant wattage both then and now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Things are never equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 ---------------- On 5/31/2005 2:55:33 PM mdeneen wrote: "All things being equal, why should a tube amplifier sound any different to a solid state amplifier." =============== Which things? mdeneen ---------------- I'm glad you asked. I am suggesting considerations such as power output, bandwidth, and component quality. My thoughts are then focused on the perceived tone. Why should one amplifier sound so different from another? Why should solid state sound so different from tube (in all it's variations). In partial answer to my own question. I can say, based on my listening experience, that many tube amplifiers DO sound different from apparent solid state equivalents. But why? I am suggesting, for better or worse, that different amplifier topologies DO NOT not need to sound different. In fact the different tonal qualities are, by and large, deliberately designed in. Now, excuse me. I'm going to take cover under a table somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 "There is nothing a fine digital amp cant do that a tube can" What sort of digital amp are we talking about? A high end boutique one? What sort of tube amp are we talking about? The only digital amp (Or class"T") I've listened to, is a Sonic Impact with some mods. Now the little 3 channel Teac that everyone likes, I would assume sounds like a good clean PP tube amp? Without the warmth and less coloration? Never had one..... I've compared the modded SI amp to my 2A3 SET and it doesn't even come close to the midrange and the size of the soundstage. Of course the triode amp has the warmth and it's own colorations, but a digital amp emulating a 2A3 SET sound? All parts and topolgies being unequal, would sort of 2A3 SET amp would it emulate? AC or DC heated? Parafeed or Air-gapped outputs? I never dwelled upon high-end digi-amps, or high quality class D stuff, and I'm sure there is digital amps that kick butt on triodes, but not in my income bracket. I did hear a new Peavey pro-sound amp a month ago or so that had a really good sound and tone, to me..... I should try a Teac digi-amp, but I can use the 100 bucks for tube amp projects. I dunno though...this old mid-seventies JVC integrated that I snarfed for 5 bucks seems to be floating my boat. Fully cleaned-up and recapped with Elna Silmic, Cerafine, and decent new Nichicons. It isn't a harsh or sibilant sounding SS amp, and plenty of power to keep me happy.(I think it's about a 40 or 50 watt integrated.) Warm, but not too warm, good for summer use and death metal...... Big deal, so the little Taboo may clip a little bit on a transient, if the amp is anything like my little Magnavox SEP amp, it's pretty rough to hear it anyway. Even all pinched up and clipping, I'll never get rid of my little Maggotbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 PWK said lots of things....including: "for home use, peak amplifier output of 1 watt would suffice to feed a Klipschorn" Without knowing the desired vol. level/preferred distance from speakers/etc--it really makes no sense to pass judgement on any watt/speaker combination. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 ---------------- On 5/31/2005 8:03:32 PM mike stehr wrote: I should try a Teac digi-amp, but I can use the 100 bucks for tube amp projects. ---------------- Mike, email me your info and I'll put you on the Teac roadshow list. As soon as I get done playing with my spare, I'm sending one around for folks who are interested. It'll be a "ship to the next guy" deal, so you'd be out the cost of a Chinese EL84. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 The Teac instructions refer to hooking up to speakers with "an impedance of 6 ohms or more" (they don't say if that is 'average', or minimum, or....). Mine sounds fine but-- Should I be concerned about over-driving the Teac on my 4 ohm min Fortes?.... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 I really have no idea, but I think if it doesn't get too hot or sound funky, you're alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codhead Posted November 29, 2005 Share Posted November 29, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 "All things being equal, why should a tube amplifier sound any different to a solid state amplifier." =============== mdeneen Exactly ......... tho ...tubes may have a good edge in transient response Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Duke: That's really hard to believe. I have never seen a square wave response with a tube amp that was correct. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 "Mr. Klipsch recommended a minimum of 20 watts per channel." How many watts was PWKs Brook 12A 2A3 Push Pull amp again? There was even a factory mod for the Khorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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