RF-7 versus KHorn constraints

[steve]

Asking this goes against the grain for me as I should know better being an owner of Klipschorns for 22 years..but here goes..

I have a dedicated music room, approximately 21' (long wall) by 15' (short wall) but with a sloping ceiling..10' on the left to approx 6 1/2' on the right..KHorns are set up on the long wall..I run a Scott 130 pre amp mated with an Assemblage SET300B amp..my CD medium is a fully loaded AH! Njoe Tjoeb 4000..room has a concrete floor w/carpet over it, 5/8" sheetrock all the way around, including the ceiling..and some tapestries hung to "absorb" the high frequencies..that said..

Sometimes, as much as I enjoy the clarity of the Khorns for vocals/acoustic and horn music I think they "lack" for the bass slam of high powered rock and roll, say like Deep Purple, Aerosmith, ZZ Top..well, you get the picture. So with what I've read here, I have been thinking about RF-7s as a secondary system to the room, for my rock and roll urges, mated to a higher powered SS amp..

Bear in mind, I've gone through lengths of making sure the KHorns are placed firmly in the corners, sealed etc...but it's got me wondering..could the problem be in my room?? Or is it the nature of the beast not having direct radiating woofers? I know, garbage in, garbage out with the source..but my 'Horns are in the only corners I have..so my "desire" for the RF-7s is the ability to move them around for the optimum sound..i.e. if my room is the culprit!

I bring this up as I used to have my 'Horns in the living room..much different, ceiling about 7' high, full length of the LR ,maybe 16' apart, listening position 12' back, wood paneling, and wood floors, and the bass was, well..overwhelming! I moved them to a dedicated music room so my better half could sleep when I was listening late into the night, on nights off.

Would I be wasting my time on RF-7s? Would I get more of the same sound if the room was the culprit? Or would I get an improvement on the sound by moving them?? This hobby is a blessing and a curse all at the same time. Kathy says her RF-7s are the best. Allan says he's done..Dean says the KHorns are a pain to make happy (as others do)..any advice?? Or just trade for those 901s I see as a hot topic (ha!)

Thanx all!!

Steve

[DrWho]

One of the "benefits" to horns is that they lower the cone excursion necessary for providing the same SPL, in effect reducing frequency modulation distortion. However, most all the classic rock is mixed on direct radiating "subwoofers" in the studio, and the sound of the mix was dialed in with the distortions of the direct radiator. Get rid of those distortions and you're left with a very thin bass sound, which is what I feel you're experiencing with your khorns. The recording itself really doesn't have any thick bass recorded to it, but unintentionally the recording was expecting you to have a direct radiating subwoofer to fatten up the sound back to normal. So your khorns are basically doing what they're supposed to do, but it's almost as if they aren't the right speaker for the job. I have no doubt that the same recordings mixed to sound good on khorns would indeed sound better, but these recordings would correspondingly sound way too bass heavy on normal speakers...

Anyways, if you really wanna rock it out I would suggest getting some cornwalls. If you're a DIY person you could always build yourself some cornscalas (cornwall bass with the lascala mids and highs...also the same mids and highs on the khorn), which would keep that same midrange vocal stuff that you seem to like so much. That's not to say that the mids and highs on the cornwall aren't shabby either, because it really is a fricken good sounding speaker.

Another option would be to simply get a subwoofer. It seems that perhaps you may be a straight up 2 channel guy (not 2.1)...so I might suggest getting two subs and running them with the speaker level inputs...basically turning the khorns into a 4 way design (so stereo bass). You could even put the subs right up in front of the khorns too. Just be sure that you don't start out with crappy subs and then decide that they just muddy up everything (which good subs tuned in well won't do).

I've never had the chance to really critically listen to rock on RF-7's but my initial impressions lead me to believe that you'll be left wanting for more. Don't get me wrong, the RF-7's are great speakers but there is better available for specifically rock and roll. The KLF-30's are a similar speaker which I think I might prefer (that's going off reviews though...never heard a pair myself). The chorus II and Forte II are some other speakers to consider (I personally have the chorus II's and they're a good rock speaker as well...very similar to the cornwalls).

[KlipsDude]

The Khorns have more relaxed bass, I never got as good bass from Khorn as my KLF-30 and RF-7 but my room isnt best for it. Was really uncool tryin to get it like I wanted, after a few years of tryin and tryin, when the KLF-30 was out, I gots it. Now I have the RF-7 and really pleased with it. For me, I thought the midrange for Khorn was too agressive and overkill but I thinks it's my small room, the Khorns really need room, BIG ROOM to breath so they aren't too in face and ears. The RF-7 are like Khorns but more civil, great punch bass, and smooth midrange from cone/horn, great imaging and detail, less agressive midrange that is just right all-to-gether way in a smaller package, and easy placement compared to Khorns. The Khorns are good for a big ballroom as you already know, and I'm just a humble small house guy.

[Parrot]

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On 6/8/2005 1:54:43 AM steve wrote:

an Assemblage SET300B amp

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This is the obvious culprit. You're never going to get the kind of rock and roll bass slam you want out of SET amplification.

Did you have this same amp in your previous room with the overwhelming bass? "Overwhelming" as in good? Or "overwhelming" as in lack of control? If you mean as in lack of control, it's again because of the SET amp.

I'd borrow a receiver from a friend and hook it up in the room to see what happens to the presentation of the music.

[Frzninvt]

I don't know what you guys are talking about but I don't have absolutely perfect corners but I get fabulous bass out of my Klipschorn's! I have two 15" Velodyne Servo Subs but I do not even have to turn the things on unless I am watching a movie.

Relaxed bass my eye! Come over I'll let you hear some relaxed bass that will hit you in the chest like a hammer. I have run the system upwards of 130db easily with no distortion, breakup or artifacts the RF-7 would fall apart at those levels. My '62 Cornwalls will outperform the 7's! Granted they are hot rodded but I don't even need to use my Klipschorn's to best them.

Like Parrot said your running SET and expecting bass slam, c'mon! More like dink, dink, dink, instead of bam, bam, bam!

[jacksonbart]

"I have run the system upwards of 130db easily with no distortion, breakup or artifacts the RF-7 would fall apart at those levels"

What!!

So would/do peoples' ears.

[3dzapper]

Steve, you've had your Khorns for 22 years, you are aware of the tremendous bass that they are capable of producing.

I would suspect the room/amp/xover axis. Your base sensation declined when you moved the K's into the new room, which you don't specify but I assume is open behind the listening position. Here you will loose some of the room reinforcement reflecting back to your ears from the back wall.

Your 300B amp is a little weaker in the low end than the mids and lower highs which is where triodes shine. In your other room with it's bass reinforcement, this was not so much a factor.

Your x-overs? You don't specify which ones you are using but, if they are ALKs you can go to a lower squaker setting. This would have the effect of accentuating the bass.

Perhaps, in your case bi-amping might be in order. A little inexpensive Teac digital amp for the low freq's and your magical SET amp for it's strong points from 400Hz up.

You can test this theory for about $200 ($100 for the Teac and $100 for a used Rane or Beringer 2 way active X-over)

Just a few thoughts.

It's not the recordings mix or what they were mixed on. Either the bass is recorded or it's not. You heard it once with your recordings but misplaced it. It's there someplace.

BTW Dr, Cornwall (or clone) bass does not nearly approach the Klipschorn in level or cleanliness. All DRs are good for is introducing IM and doubling.

Rick

[Cal Blacksmith]

I must agree with the amp. We had my Sonic Frontiers Power 1 and Toms VRDs hooked up to Andys Khorns and there was no shortage of solid bass with either amp. Borrow another amp if you can, one that has some Brass in the Getters and see how it sounds before you head down the Reference Road.

[steve]

appreciate all the replies.

Parrot, I have used the Adcom preamp/amp combo GFP565 pre and GFA545 II (100 watts ch) and although I got more bass (though not as much as I thought i would) the highs were definitely over the top for me..I tried to mate up the Scott with the Adcom, and I got a little too much white noise..what amp/preamp would you suggest..not so much what brand, but tube or SS ?? I know you guys always talk about push/pull tube amps..would this be the way to go? Also, you are right..I had the Adcoms hooked up in the house, before the move to the music room, and the bass was overwhelming (the good type) but the same set up in the music room lost all that bass..that's why I assume it's the room..wouldn't the concrete floor sap some of the bass? The sloped ceiling?

Rick, I have AK type crossovers..just looked. I guess I could try biamping..that's a thought.

Also, I do have a sub, a Bob Carver Sunfire true subwoofer..it actually gets a little too loud, and I caught myself having to change the settings on every recording..that got a little old. I wanted to set it and forget it.

I guess the reason I was asking about the RF7s is that I have swapped a lot of gear in and out of my system and never really got what I wanted (except for mellow/acoustic/horn music with the KHorns) and I have never swapped speakers. What do you think about Adcom/RF7 combo for rock and leave the Khorn/SET tube set up for everything else?

Thanx again all

regards,

Steve

[cjgeraci]

Steve, having owned Belles, Cornwalls and RF-7s, and also having listened to many pairs of K-horns, the advice you are receiving concerning a change in amp first - is good advice. I am one of those push-pull tube amp guys, and I think you should at least listen to your K-horns with a pp amp of 30 watts per channel (or greater), and then reevaluate your bass response. Then, if you still feel the need for something different, add a different set of speakers.

From what you have described so far, a potential problem with adding RF-7s to your current setup right now is that you may be opening up a whole new can of worms (with respect to equipment upgrades). If you think the Adcom setup was bright or somewhat over the top (on the high end) with respect to your K-horns, RF-7s could be even more so in that respect. Don't get me wrong. I'm a big fan of RF-7s, but only with the right equipment - and it took certain equipment (and Dean's crossover upgrade) to get mine where I wanted them. The RF-7's compression driver on the upper end is very detailed, but can sound over the top with certain solid state (even some separates). At the very least, I would either audition RF-7s with your Adcom equipment or touch base with people who have run that equipment with RF-7s. Because......I think RF-7s are even more of a pain to make them happy (as opposed to large Heritage).

So.... if you decide to go for RF-7s, just go in with your eyes open that you might have to change a preamp and amp for those speakers to get what you want.

If you are still intrigued about other speakers, and .... you really like the Adcom combination, you might want to think about a pair of preowned KLF-20s or 30s instead. In my experience, the different materials used in the drivers in the KLF series do not scream as much on the upper end (as opposed to the upper end of the Reference series). As a result, those speakers may be more forgiving with respect to your Adcom gear.

Just my two cents.

Carl.

[Deang]

For now, I would buy a good tube preamp and run the Adcom. After you recover financially from that move I would dump the AK networks. What you replace them with will primarily be determined by how much you are willing to spend. Don't let anyone fool you. On the speaker end of things, there is a direct correlation between cost and performance. There's no way to cheat on that one.

[cjgeraci]

Dean makes another good point. I have also run a quality tube preamp with a solid state amp, and that often takes some of the edge off the upper end nicely -whether it be Heritage or Reference speakers. And then you would have the bass response with the K-horns you are looking for. Good call Dean.

Carl.

[Deang]

I'm convinced the preamp is the heart of the system, and it can make or break the whole deal. If I had to choose between quality networks and something like The Peach - I wouldn't. I would sell my car and buy a bike.

[IndyKlipschFan]

My guess is maybe your pre amp is the most important piece of equipment to look at first.

The ALK x overs would do.. Lower the mids a slight bit.//// And maybe just overall, your x overs might be not be up to specs too? (Yes, it does happen.)

I agree a SET amp does not usually have as much punch a SS would at mid loud to loud levels if that is what your after!

Borrow someones good SS like a Denon etc., to test the room.

My 2 Cents/

[steve]

thanx again

that does sound like the way to go, the preamp w/SS amp that is..however, I just can't find a good tube pre w/tone controls. I tried a Blueberry, and it wasn't right either..with no disrespect towards Mark..that's where I thought maybe my room was to blame, as everyone else just loves that preamp!

Any suggestions on a tube pre w/tone controls??

Maybe I should build another room?? This tends to get frustrating.

Dean, you got rid of your KHorns didn't you?Z? What did you replace them with?

Thanx

Steve

[Audio Flynn]

Like Parrot said your running SET and expecting bass slam, c'mon! More like dink, dink, dink, instead of bam, bam, bam!

____________________

I have to side here. For a cheap experiement get a nice 6L6 power amp and see what you get. If that is nice you can imaginge how amazing VRDs would sound!

My son was just amazed at the slam from my system last night as we sat and talked (kind of shouting at each other).

I disagree that the Scott 130 is a weakness in your system. I got my AMPEX preamp since I could not afford a Scott 130 or Blueberry at the time.

Could not locate a 6L6 power amp easily on the web but a little FIsher X 100 integrated would give you a bit more punch.

$ 250 experiment

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1123420310

Since I am passionately saving for the KT-88 amps now; I really do not find any serious flaws in the Scott 208 for the present time.

SS power with tube preamp is not a direction I persoanlly will pursue.

[3dzapper]

"Rick, I have AK type crossovers..just looked. I guess I could try biamping..that's a thought."

Steve, You've been around long enough to have seen this before and not be upset by it (crossed fingers)

It has been said, many times, here on the forum that the type AK networks are the worst crossovers Klipsch ever put in a Khorn. With twenty five years on the caps, they are most likely even worse.

Your Scott 130 is a coveted pre-amp with tone controls. If your Khorns are still bright with the loudness contour on, the trouble lies elsewhere. Do yourself a favor, talk to Al K, you'll be glad you did. I'm not going back to AA.

Dean's and Bob's great networks, although less expensive, can't address the imbalance in your room.

Rick

[Colin]

get a powerful sub for bass slam.

[Audio Flynn]

How does everyone define bass slam in hz?

Mine is kind of bass drum and bass guitar.

40-150 hz of effortless realistic reproduction.

[steve]

Rick

yeah, I've seen that about the AKs..so Al's really make that much difference? I've kicked that idea around, because of the age of the speakers. May have to talk to Al. I guess that would be a step in the right direction. As for the Scott, I don't think I said it was "bright" quite the contrary. I think I mentioned that it has "white noise" when paired with my SS amp..that's why I have left the SET 300B amp in place..it's pretty quiet, and like I mentioned, I like having tone controls. Right now my complaint is lack of bass on rock and roll. I still think the room change has a lot to do with it, although the other advice I have been getting is a big factor too. Does everyone have this urge to "upgrade" all the time?? Well, besides Dean I mean? ha ha..

Steve