maxg Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 It is one of those oft quoted audiophile pieces of jibberish that tube watts are louder or otherwise somehow bigger than SS watts. Whilst watts are watts (I am fairly sure of that) the fact remains that many believe a tube amp will produce higher sound levels than an equivalently spec'ed SS amp. The link below is to an interesting little analysis done in 2001 by a guy at Stereophile. http://www.stereophile.com/reference/357/index4.html I think he is on to something - but I am not sure - the following letters page is also interesting for the explanations proferred. I dont know if any further follow up was done on this - it was in itself a follow up from work originally done in 2000 - which he refers to. Still, interesting stuff!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 shows that a 4w triode can rival a 25w SS amp in output current and provide soft clipping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 Mark, Exactly! The premise is therefore that clipping is so benign on a tube amp (single ended in this case - not so sure for PP amps) that the listener simply doesnt notice and therefore claims that the thing plays louder. Therefore tube watts go further than SS watts. Of course this begs the immediate question of relative sensitivities of listeners to "benign" clipping. It could go a long way to explaining why some people love SET amps and claim to be able to listen at volume levels others seemingly cant bear. Is this the basis of the SET sound? Whatever the answer to that question I do not think it makes SET sound either right or wrong. Merely that an individual will either find it the best thing since sliced bread or not. I can see this thread going down the usual SET/PP war route - I hope not - it is just an interesting take on why tube amp watts might appear to go further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotbuck Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 ---------------- On 6/21/2005 8:23:15 AM maxg wrote: "...clipping is so benign on a tube amp (single ended in this case - not so sure for PP amps) that the listener simply doesnt notice and therefore claims that the thing plays louder..." ---------------- Greetings, This is something that we guitarists have felt intuitively for years. Although it seems counter-intuitive, I've found that I always need a bit of tube distortion from my guitar amp for my guitar to sound natural. And while turning the amp "up to 11" will produce gobs of distortion, turning the volume up to the sweet spot at the onset of distortion makes the guitar sound like itself -- only better. It's as if the amp's distortion acts more as an enhancer; the result is something that doesn't sound like a distorted tone as much as an enhanced clean tone. I expect that's also what I'm hearing when I use my tube stereo amplifier. Take care, Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Very interesting! Thanks!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hardy Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Appropos of the topic: Did y'all see this thread at AA recently? http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=general&n=386047 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 ---------------- On 6/21/2005 9:28:34 AM scotbuck wrote: ---------------- On 6/21/2005 8:23:15 AM maxg wrote: "...clipping is so benign on a tube amp (single ended in this case - not so sure for PP amps) that the listener simply doesnt notice and therefore claims that the thing plays louder..." ---------------- Greetings, This is something that we guitarists have felt intuitively for years. Although it seems counter-intuitive, I've found that I always need a bit of tube distortion from my guitar amp for my guitar to sound natural. And while turning the amp "up to 11" will produce gobs of distortion, turning the volume up to the sweet spot at the onset of distortion makes the guitar sound like itself -- only better. It's as if the amp's distortion acts more as an enhancer; the result is something that doesn't sound like a distorted tone as much as an enhanced clean tone. I expect that's also what I'm hearing when I use my tube stereo amplifier. Take care, Scott ---------------- Just to gainsay my own proposition here I am not sure the comparison above is valid. It seems to me that there is a marked difference between music production (as is the case for a guitar amp) and music re-production (as is the case for a stereo amp - or equivalent). In effect the amp for the guitar is an integral part of the instrument - and therefore adjusting it to create a given sound is part and parcel of producing the musical effect you, the guitarist, want. On the other hand the function of music reproduction has to be, at some level at least, the accurate protrayal of an existing sonic event. This would imply that adding in a sonic signature, deliberately, is flying in the face of what this hobby is all about. Or is it? If I like Ketchup on my food I should be allowed to have it. On the other hand - with everything? I could go on having this discussion with myself for ever - I think I need to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 i'd say the sense of tubes sounding more powerfull, is transient response .. the SS amp has a rail voltage of, perhaps 60 volts, or slightly above the output .. the tube amp has a B+, of , say , 580 volts ...easily 30X the output voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotbuck Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 ---------------- "... On the other hand the function of music reproduction has to be, at some level at least, the accurate protrayal of an existing sonic event. This would imply that adding in a sonic signature, deliberately, is flying in the face of what this hobby is all about. Or is it? If I like Ketchup on my food I should be allowed to have it. On the other hand - with everything? ..." ---------------- Greetings, That's a tough one! Earlier this year the band I was in did a studio demo CD. I found that my little tripath amp more accurately reproduced the sound I heard in the studio when we mixed the recording. As such, it was a more useful tool to hear how the studio mix sounded. On the other hand, my single-ended toob amp gave the recording more of a sense of what it sounded like while the band was actually *playing* at the studio while the mics were live. Which is better? I dunno... A lot typically happens in a studio between the initial recording, mixing and mastering. Microphones (even expensive studio mics) are only so accurate. Each tells its own version of the truth (which is why you'll likely find a mix of Neumann, RCA ribbon, Sure SM-58, etc. mics available for different applications). Then, after the initial sound is captured there's compression, EQ, panning, etc., etc., etc., -- all used to make the recording sound more pleasing. In fact, I was impressed by how much "fake" stuff was needed to make a digital recording sound more "natural"! As far as how to reproduce that studio "event" is concerned, I can't say with any authority which form of amplification is better. As I've mentioned in a previous post: Sometimes we want the truth and nothing but the truth; other times we prefer a little white lie told with the best of intentions... My guess is that, in their own way, they're all good -- which would explain why so many types of amps, cables, speakers, and sources are available... Take care, Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Max, I hear you. I'm with Scott on this, though. Accuracy is a chimera that we can chase but never catch. I realize that there are measurable phenomena that go a certain distance toward explaining all of this. That is useful to a certain extent for the listener, and much more so for the designer or DIYer. When it comes down to me in my sweet spot home early from work with a glass of Eclipse rum and a stout wedge of lime, the Sattalites, Donna the Buffalo and I don't give a rat's behind about objectivity. It is good. Legal disclaimer: this post was not intended to be, nor should be construed as a complete and reasoned argument on the nature of musical and technical sound reproduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfandbark Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hope they're all using the same set of Klipsch speakers as a base...... WOOF! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Great thread, Max Nothing to offer except YES. Good science, good hypothesis. I especially thought the quitarist input telling. I've been aware of their preference for years and understood the reasoning. Nothing more horrific to the ears than an overdriven SS guitar amp! OTOH, an overdriven tube guitar amp just gets more complex and interesting. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franczyk Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 ---------------- On 6/21/2005 8:23:15 AM maxg wrote: The premise is therefore that clipping is so benign on a tube amp (single ended in this case - not so sure for PP amps) that the listener simply doesnt notice and therefore claims that the thing plays louder. Therefore tube watts go further than SS watts. ---------------- I don't mean to be rude, but I highly recommend that you read the article. His measurements show that the tube amps, and in particular the SET amp ACTUALLY ARE Louder, not just in perception, but in reality. But they are only capable of getting louder for transients. The tube amp is capable of getting about 2x louder during a transient than it can during a steady tone, and the SET amp is able to get almost 4 times as loud as it can with a steady tone. However, I suppose in theory, you could just buy an amp that is 4 times as large and get approximately the same thing. I highly recommend reading the article. Its very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 22, 2005 Author Share Posted June 22, 2005 ---------------- On 6/22/2005 9:45:29 AM franczyk wrote: ---------------- On 6/21/2005 8:23:15 AM maxg wrote: The premise is therefore that clipping is so benign on a tube amp (single ended in this case - not so sure for PP amps) that the listener simply doesnt notice and therefore claims that the thing plays louder. Therefore tube watts go further than SS watts. ---------------- I don't mean to be rude, but I highly recommend that you read the article. His measurements show that the tube amps, and in particular the SET amp ACTUALLY ARE Louder, not just in perception, but in reality. But they are only capable of getting louder for transients. The tube amp is capable of getting about 2x louder during a transient than it can during a steady tone, and the SET amp is able to get almost 4 times as loud as it can with a steady tone. However, I suppose in theory, you could just buy an amp that is 4 times as large and get approximately the same thing. I highly recommend reading the article. Its very good. ---------------- I am happy to confirm that I did read the article - quite thoroughly. the point is that he set the volume at the maximum level he could without detectable distortion to his ears (cleverly using noise reduction ear plugs to eliminate volume distortion in the ear itself). The premise here - therefore - is either that SET amps are magic and dont clip (which I have eliminated for no good reason other than some basic physics) or, more likely, that there is in fact distortion happening but it is not readily detectable. therefore - a tube amp will APPEAR to play louder because despite the fact that is almost certainly is clipping the listener cant tell. In other words a 10 watt set amp will play EXACTLY as loud as a 10 watt SS amp if we stay below clipping level. Going into clipping becomes both obvious and painful with SS but not with the tubes. That simple really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Well now I know the difference between "clean watts" and "dirty watts". So we should have the designation to the stats as "30cw" or "90dw". JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franczyk Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 ---------------- therefore - a tube amp will APPEAR to play louder because despite the fact that is almost certainly is clipping the listener cant tell. In other words a 10 watt set amp will play EXACTLY as loud as a 10 watt SS amp if we stay below clipping level. Going into clipping becomes both obvious and painful with SS but not with the tubes. ---------------- Gotcha... Yes, that was a good point of the article too. The tube amps and the solid state amps sound approximately identical under clipping. Therefore there are two things occuring: 1) When the tube amp clips, it sounds more tolerable than when a solid state amp clips. 2) When the tube amp plays a transient, it is capable of spiking MUCH higher than the solid state amp. Either way, I think this makes a good case for using high sensitivity speakers and/or high power amps, in order to maintain a very large amount of headroom for transients. (even though you won't use that power for 99% of your music) I think it agrees with what DeanG and NOSValves have been pushing on here all along... Higher power just plain sounds better (as long as the amp has a low noise floor) In fact, two of the best systems Ive ever heard were running MONSTER amps. One had 500w Boulder monoblocks, and the other had Classe's flagship monoblocks (big monsters). Of course, the amps probably all cost $10k a channel, but I think they are onto something with the power-overkill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 I would still prefer to listen to an amp, whether SS or Tube, that is not clipping the signal at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted June 22, 2005 Klipsch Employees Share Posted June 22, 2005 ---------------- On 6/22/2005 9:45:29 AM franczyk wrote: ---------------- On 6/21/2005 8:23:15 AM maxg wrote: The premise is therefore that clipping is so benign on a tube amp (single ended in this case - not so sure for PP amps) that the listener simply doesnt notice and therefore claims that the thing plays louder. Therefore tube watts go further than SS watts. ---------------- I don't mean to be rude, but I highly recommend that you read the article. His measurements show that the tube amps, and in particular the SET amp ACTUALLY ARE Louder, not just in perception, but in reality. But they are only capable of getting louder for transients. The tube amp is capable of getting about 2x louder during a transient than it can during a steady tone, and the SET amp is able to get almost 4 times as loud as it can with a steady tone. However, I suppose in theory, you could just buy an amp that is 4 times as large and get approximately the same thing. I highly recommend reading the article. Its very good. ---------------- This is why you should always buy a SS amp with a "power factor" of 5. if you need "100 watts" to the speaker get a 500 watt amp....Its all about HEAD ROOM! I suggest 10 db of it for most systems, home or Pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 22, 2005 Author Share Posted June 22, 2005 "This is why you should always buy a SS amp with a "power factor" of 5. if you need "100 watts" to the speaker get a 500 watt amp....Its all about HEAD ROOM! I suggest 10 db of it for most systems, home or Pro." Whilst that is true as far as it goes the important point is that, certainly in the case of Klipsch speakers you patently won't need 100 watts - probably ever! If your typical listening levels are around 85 dB continuous with peaks hitting 95 dB and you sit within 3 meters of a pair of Heresy's (for example) you are still only going to "need" a couple of watts and are therefore highly unlikely to clip - ever - with an amp of 20 wpc - even if it has no headroom at all. Which could explain why 20 wpc is the recommended minimum from Klipsch for the Heritage range (as a well known bird often tells us). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Trey Cannon: "This is why you should always buy a SS amp with a "power factor" of 5. if you need "100 watts" to the speaker get a 500 watt amp....Its all about HEAD ROOM! I suggest 10 db of it for most systems, home or Pro." _______________________________ I agree with Trey on the issue of high dynamic headroom. NAD & Proton had amps that generated 6 to 7dB of dynamic headroom back in the mid to late 80s. I've owned a Proton receiver and an NAD integrated amp and they both sounded very good on my Heresy IIs in my opinion. I wonder why NAD & Proton were the only people (to my knowledge) to offer such high dynamic headroom designs? Why did they abandon that market place and why hasn't anybody else jumped in to fill their shoes? I think having 6 to 7 dB of dynamic headroom sure beats the hell out of the lousey 1 to 2.5 dB you generally find out there. -H2G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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