Better sound from Heresy than Klipschorn

[D-MAN]

unless the Heresys are sitting on top of the Khorns aimed the same way, it's the position!

If the same positionally, I would consider the Khorn crossover as being a candidate for updating, upgrading or replacement.

It's not the source and its not the amp. Could be everything "after" the amp in the signal chain, though. That means speaker cables, crossover, internal wiring, drivers.

DM

[J.4knee]

Easy fix here. You live in No. Cal, I live in So Cal! Just send the Khorns down to me that way the difference in sound won't bother you. I am always willing to help out a fellow Klipscher like this.

Now on a more serious note. Either get the crossovers rebuilt or better yet get new crossovers like the Universal A replacement from Al Klappenberger. As mentioned above Dean G and Bob Crites (BEC) can do a superb job on you corssovers as well. The caps in your Khorns are 30+ and the caps in your Heresy's are 20 + ...time for them to go.

[tofu]

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On 8/24/2005 7:41:36 AM DrWho wrote:

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On 8/23/2005 11:17:26 PM reznil wrote:

I also did a blind study with my wife (who has better hearing) on 128 MP3 and the original CD, to compare quality. No definite advantage was evident, even with my good amp and speakers. I am glad, I know some people have reripped their cd collection at 160 MP3 when the price of large capacity hard disks came down. I have a lot of music, I really don't want to rip it all again!

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I don't think the audigy2 is that bad of a sound card to warrant it unreasonable for khorns,

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assuming he's using the zs, and he uses foobar's software resampler along with kernel streaming or asio, then yea, it should be decent. otherwise i've read time after time that the audigy series does some really TERRIBLE hardware resampling of everything below 48khz

[DrWho]

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On 8/24/2005 12:35:35 PM D-MAN wrote:

It's not the source and its not the amp. Could be everything "after" the amp in the signal chain, though. That means speaker cables, crossover, internal wiring, drivers.

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If you can't hear the difference between an MP3 and a CD (even on the heresies), then there is definetly something wrong upstream. There is no way the difference shouldn't be heard. Minor tweaking of the crossover isn't gonna do crap for a difference this large.

Seriously, an outta spec cap or coil is just going to shift the "crossover point"...double the difference comes to about an octave of change. A cap that is like 10% off is going to move about 1 note, which just means the driver starts rolling off early or late...the end result would be like introducing a 1dB EQ (either boost or peak depending on how the spec moves). It's just like tuning the port on a subwoofer...there is the target tuning, but anything within a few Hz results in minute changes in the response. You really won't be able to hear 1dB unless you A/B'd it. However, an mp3 is certainly more than "1dB worse"...more like 10dB for a relative magnitude of how easy the difference is to hear.

[reznil]

Well, I ordered new Dynamicaps for one speaker, going to put it in and listen to the difference. Two 2uF, one 3uF, one 10uF. That was about $100. I'll let you guys know when I get them in and did a listen test.

I'm going to add this next comment, though I know I will be beaten to a pulp for suggesting it. When you notice the difference between MP3 and CD, are you doing a blind comparison? When she knew what was playing, my wife said the CD was clearly better. With a true blind comparison, the difference was not clear at all. I suggest you have someone do a true test on you, and be sure they adjust the volume before switching formats so they are about equal loudness. Also, be sure they don't just switch back and forth, but sometimes play the same format twice. No peeking! Eyes shut!

I think you'll be suprised.

[Deang]

When the dielectic in a capacitor breaks down, the resistive element goes up. Sometimes way up. Where a good cap will be in the mOhm territory, a cap on its way out can read as high as 30 ohms. Now, put a 30 ohm resistor in series with your drivers and tell me how much difference you hear between sources. Of course his Heresys sound better -- they aren't strangling off the signal. I believe his initial impression was dead on. Many of you probably don't hang on every word the network guys say, but it probably wouldn't hurt to pay at least a little bit attention.

[IB Slammin]

Old caps drift and need to be replaced. Don't get me wrong, I like Heresy and own four of them...BUT.....If a Khorn has drivers in the box, it will sound better than a Heresy.

Terry

[edwinr]

You guys have to stop looking for excuses for the Heresy sounding so good!

It's a great sounding speaker, and in smaller rooms will give any other speaker a run for it's money. Look at it's strengths - speed, accuracy, dynamics, sensitivity. It's got the lot.

So let's get this right. It's not that the Heresy is a smaller version of the Klipschorn - this suggests the Heresy is somehow lacking. It's more accurate to say the Klipschorn is is a bigger version of the Heresy.

[TBrennan]

Man, you guys are really freaking out.

It's entirely possible and resonable that a person would prefer Heresys to Khorns. No, I wouldn't (I'd prefer a dentist's drill to Heresys) but it's reasonable that some would.

The speakers share the same mid driver and so-called tweeter afterall. A person who prefers a "crisper" sound could well prefer the Heresy because of it's tonal balance, afterall people like all different kinds of tonality, actually it would be surprising if nobody preferred the Heresy to the Khorn.

[WMcD]

I believe you are hearing the effect of the midrange horn. The one in the Heresy is pretty much a scaled down version of the one one in the K-Horn.

The major effect is that the one in the Heresy does not start working until almost an octave higher in the low end. However, I doubt the high end is exactly the same in the dispursion pattern even if the on-axis response is reasonably the same, and despite the use of the same driver.

You may have gotten use to the overall balance of the Heresy, as Tom B. points out. Then anything else sounds a bit off.

For example, our ear brain combination is very sensitive in the area of 3500 Hz. That may be why we pick up on low level sounds and find them distinctive. E.g. a mechanical clock ticking, the drip of water, somone turning the pages in a book on the other side of the library.

People point out that the critical sounds in our language, e.g. "s" and "t" and "p" and "c" are in this range. (Fricatives and explosives?)

It is interesting that even the word "crisp" is a bit onomotopoetic (sp?) in a sense (not the most accurate choice of terminology, but close). This word "crisp" has the air flow and interuptions we create with our teeth and tongue. On the on the other hand, the vowel sounds of a e i o u are closer to pure tones.

The bottom line is that small variations can lead to big perceived differences.

Gil

[reznil]

I think you people are right, my ears need to get used to the Khorns. I am starting to hear it now. Playing good jazz, it's like I have a band in my living room.

I will see what changing the caps does also, just for the heck of it. The caps are old, after all. I don't think I'll change the caps in the Heresys, they still sound good and they are 10 years younger (84 vs 74). Also, I did the math and it would cost $200 per Heresy (compared to $100 per Khorn) to put Dynamicaps in. My Heresys have the E2 crossover. It takes a 33uF cap. The largest Dynamicap makes is 10uF. So three of those, at $40 each, plus a 3uF, in addition to two 2uF, yikes, that's $200!

I think only my Khorns get the royal treatment.

Hey, thanks again everyone for your info, this forum is a great resource and lots of fun.

[Guest BobG]

Plosives

[DrWho]

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On 8/24/2005 7:35:30 PM reznil wrote:

When you notice the difference between MP3 and CD, are you doing a blind comparison? When she knew what was playing, my wife said the CD was clearly better. With a true blind comparison, the difference was not clear at all. I suggest you have someone do a true test on you, and be sure they adjust the volume before switching formats so they are about equal loudness. Also, be sure they don't just switch back and forth, but sometimes play the same format twice.

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I have blind tested this many times (friends have done it to me and I've done it to them) and can easily detect the difference 100% of the time. Heck, I can walk into a room with unfamiliar music playing and about 50% of the time be able to tell if the source was mp3 or CD (it's hard to tell if it's a crappy recording or the result of the format). With familiar music I'm right about 90% of the time when walking into the room and having no frame of reference.

My dad who cannot tell the difference between his old bose bookshelves and my chorus II's can notice the difference between an MP3 and CD...now whether or not it affects one's enjoyment level is a completely different discussion. My dad however cannot tell the difference when listening on cheapy computer speakers and my percentage tends to drop down to 80% (blind AB test) with unfamiliar material...just because the speakers have too much distortion masking the difference. This is what I feel might be your situation because CMSS is by default on when you first install the sound card (which will create enough of its own distortion to do the same thing).

[3dzapper]

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On 8/25/2005 4:35:28 AM reznil wrote:

I think you people are right, my ears need to get used to the Khorns. I am starting to hear it now. Playing good jazz, it's like I have a band in my living room.

I will see what changing the caps does also, just for the heck of it. The caps are old, after all. I don't think I'll change the caps in the Heresys, they still sound good and they are 10 years younger (84 vs 74). Also, I did the math and it would cost $200 per Heresy (compared to $100 per Khorn) to put Dynamicaps in. My Heresys have the E2 crossover. It takes a 33uF cap. The largest Dynamicap makes is 10uF. So three of those, at $40 each, plus a 3uF, in addition to two 2uF, yikes, that's $200!

I think only my Khorns get the royal treatment.

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Your Heresys have some black poly 2uFcaps not the older motor runs like your Khorns. They would benefit from higher quality caps though. As far as the 33uF, it is more a blocking than a band pass cap. Don't waste your money on a premium poly film, rather use a good non-polarized electrolytic in that position such as the Ruby available from parts express.

Read up on DeanG's squaker level mod. You will be surprized how good a Heresy can really sound.

I personally build new reinforced backs with L-pads for the squaker and tweeter for my Heresys.

Rick

[reznil]

Thanks Rick, not having to replace the 33uF lowers the cost to about half. Now, you mentions the "DeanG's squaker level mod". I have searched all over the forums for it, found some things about people saying they like it, but I still don't understand.

1. Is it a new crossover? A rebuild?

2. Something you can do yourself?

3. What does it do, in that how does it make it sound better.

4. I have E2 crossovers in my Heresys. Is that a problem?

5 How much?

I'm sure the answers are in the forums already, maybe if someone could point me in the right directions so I can find the info.

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Your Heresys have some black poly 2uFcaps not the older motor runs like your Khorns. They would benefit from higher quality caps though. As far as the 33uF, it is more a blocking than a band pass cap. Don't waste your money on a premium poly film, rather use a good non-polarized electrolytic in that position such as the Ruby available from parts express.

Read up on DeanG's squaker level mod. You will be surprized how good a Heresy can really sound.

I personally build new reinforced backs with L-pads for the squaker and tweeter for my Heresys.

Rick

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[meuge]

Please, please, please stop using analog outs from a mainstream computer sound card. The degree to which they are trash will amaze you once you upgrade to something better.

I would suggest getting an external DAC cheap from audiogon (<$300) and outputting SPDIF digital from your current soundcard into it. Otherwise you could purchase a pro-type sound card with much better analog outs - an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 or an EMU 0404... or the higher up models of the same.

Khorns might just be more revealing of the problem with your source. A computer is the best transport for digital music, but it must be used correctly.

[3dzapper]

reznil, It is something that you can do yourself and involves changing the caps, moving a tap on the autoformer and adding a resistor.

I'm pretty sure the attached file is the right one. Maybe Dean will chime in?

Rick

[3dzapper]

Here is another easier one. I can't remember which is the one Dean recommends. They say the memory is the first thing to go. Do you remember the second?

Both tame the levels of the squaker and tweeter somewhat to better match the bass.

Rick

[reznil]

Thanks for the schematics. Both of those are modifications on an E crossover, I have the E2.

Can anybody find an E2 schematic? I have searched here. Perhaps I will write them up myself by studying the crossover.

[3dzapper]

I believe the only difference is the addition of the 33uF cap across the woofer.

Rick