sfogg Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Erik, " $260 for an amplifier that purchased retail would be significantly higher in price." Exactly, when building for yourself where labor is 'free' the cost of an amp is considerably lower then what it would need to sell for for a person to live off selling them. Shawn P.S.... my vote for the most important thing of an amplifier is... wait for it....... design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 There seems to be a lot of confusion about subjectivity and objectivity. Anyone can have an opinion about anything, and say that A, B, or C sounds better to him. But that is not the same as saying, objectively, that A, B, or C is better. To illustrate with an extreme example, someone may prefer the sound of iPod earbuds to Klipschorns. There's nothing wrong with him saying he likes the earbuds better because to his mind he does. But it is absurd to say that the earbuds are better by any objective standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 No, the most important thing to an amplifier is that it has a power cord. Otherwise you can't plug it in and it won't work at all, no matter how good the circuit design is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 " No, the most important thing to an amplifier is that it has a power cord. Power cord does no good without having AC at the other end of the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Any dead kittens yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strabo Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Any dead kittens yet?What are you trying to say Dean?[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Uh oh....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 OK, fine. SET is objectively better than PP. We can all move on now that that has been settled . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Any dead kittens yet?What are you trying to say Dean?[] The the Lord knows I am doing my part in taming the kitten population here. I guess I have to turn it up a notch cause I keeps seeing adds in papers for free kittens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Of course the SET fraternity is Right - they have been right since the thirties. The music is in the first watt with no feedback blurring or switching distortion. SETs sound like music - we all know this. Now this thing with the kittens is just a thinly veiled attempt to have this enlightened positive SET thread shut down. Perhaps posing the question to include the word "fraternity" has unintentionaly triggered someone's unconsious sense of inadequacy. When overcompensation kicks in I expect to see posts claiming to have killed lions and tigers, too. Once the PETA folks get wind of this we will all be in big trouble! Just to be clear on this, cats have nine lives, so just how many times do you... never mind. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Craig: Alright, I'm wrong. Hey, I noticed you use those CL-60 thermistors in your VRDs! Those are neat devices, aren't they? I also use them to connect the circuit ground to the chassis ground on components -- a trick I got from Bruce Rozenblit's first book. Actually, he uses a 10 ohm resistor, but I've found the current limiters to work very well for the same thing. I also use them as a helpful soft-start feature installed between the AC input and power transformer primary. SET or PP -- high power or lower -- It's all fun to me. This must be one of the rare instances where being wrong can be a joy! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 "SET or PP -- high power or lower -- It's all fun to me." More then one way to skin a cat..... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Shawn: I think what you say is correct. I'm not thinking of this from a profit standpoint, but rather the enjoyable challenge of making something from scratch that performs well for much less than what one would be otherwise forced to pay. Having spent very close to $2,000 alone on parts for my Horus amps, I am clearly aware of the fact that it's possible to pay a significant sum for individual components. The versatile 6L6 stereo amp mentioned above looked to me to be a great design, and is one that could always be upgraded with (possibly) better OPTs, filter chokes, coupling capacitors, and so forth. Whether those changes resulted in a sound that was subsequently better than the original design is, in my opinion, a highly subjective judgement. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted September 28, 2005 Author Share Posted September 28, 2005 Maybe the SET Fraternity (Group?) is right - SET amplifiers can be very musical. I admit I first listened to SET amplifiers with my blinkers on. My mind was made up. I thought they were going to sound crap when I had my first audition, and guess what? I made sure they did! Okay, concession number one. The problem as I see it is how do you transfer that 'magical first watt' into more magical watts for those, like me that prefer more loudness for our larger rooms with that musicality? Amplifier designers using other topologies have had difficulties reproducing this musicality - from my purely non technical point of view, of course In the past I assumed that the low powered solid state amplifiers e.g. Many British models - were the only musical alternative. I thought high powered amplifiers LACKED musicality. How wrong I was! Until I started listening to properly designed high powered solid state (e.g. the Mark Levinson No. 33 - some like the Crown brand which I've never heard) and some PP tube amplifers (like the MC275 and Audio Research VSi-55), I didn't know what I was missing. I haven't heard the VRD's. Many like these amplifiers as well. But I was still taken by surprise by those Audio Note mono blocs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprocket Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 GREAT DISCUSSION .. thank you all... Good to see Erik back RB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codhead Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 "The problem as I see it is how do you transfer that 'magical first watt' into more magical watts for those, like me that prefer more loudness for our larger rooms with that musicality?" These big triodes (211's) sound very nice, and are good for around 20 watts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Any dead kittens yet?What are you trying to say Dean?[] LMAO, Considering the fraternity "hand-shake" ........No wonder that there are starving people in eastern lands....... [:'(] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 edwinr, Congratulations. I'm impressed that you had a second listen under better hardware circumstances, and have been honest enough to post your updated impressions. As to the quest for "loudness", that is a very personal taste, but one of the things one learns studying music,...... playing louder does not improve the "quality" of the music. Just a thought. On another note, I agree with your assessment preferring the bass sounds of the Khorn over the Avante Garde powered sub woofer, though the Avante Gardes are excellent speakers. It is also important to note that with a low pwered SET system, it is important to carefully match components. There really is a lot "there", when you take the time to really listen to a low powered SET system. If you're ever in the SF Bay area, I'd like to impress your ears with 2A3 Moondogs coming through Khorns. (I'm still waiting on Fini and C&S to show up for an audition.) As someone who once contriibuted often to this forum might say, ".....SET, vinyl, and horns,...a great combination." Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 "Maybe the SET Fraternity (Group?) is right" The SET Fraternity is ALWAYS right! "SET amplifiers can be very musical." That is an understatement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 "The problem as I see it is how do you transfer that 'magical first watt' into more magical watts for those, like me that prefer more loudness for our larger rooms with that musicality?" Well, if you can't go to more power there are a few ways of getting more volume.... some may work better then other. Move closer to the speakers. Add more speakers.... a center for example. By sharing the SPL load over three speakers instead of two the power requirments per speaker will drop. Band limit the amps/speakers.... an amp that doesn't have to worry about the power in the bass range (subwoofers) is an amp that won't run out of steam quite as soon. Increase the efficiency of the speakers. Either with an overall more efficient design or by bi/tri-amping. Tri-amped for example the amps would gain the benefits of bandlimiting them as well as having the maximum effiency possible for the drivers. The squawker would run unattenuated off its amp (attenuation would be at line leve) so the squawkers amp would have more available power because of the greater efficiency of the squawker. Or drivers with even greater efficiency could be used. For mids/tweeters there are setups available that have 110dB/w/m efficiencies (and even higher). On a bandwidth limited driver like that a watt or two really would be able to satisfy just about anyone in any sane sized room. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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