Best Horn Player

[grog]

We had best bass and then best vocal... We got to go for who can blow the best!

I will list a few here but my pick is....... a tie..... between "Al Hirt" and "Herb Alpert".

Chicago Transit Authority (massive horn section)

In 1967, Chicago musicians Walter Parazaider, Terry Kath, Danny

Seraphine, Lee Loughnane, James Pankow, Robert Lamm, and Peter Cetera

formed a group with one dream, to integrate all the musical diversity

from their beloved city and weave a new sound, a rock 'n' roll band

with horns. Their dream turned into 20 Top Ten singles, 12 Top Ten

albums (five of which were #1), and sales of more than 120 million

records.

Al Hirt: trumpet

Al Hirt (November 7, 1922 - April 27, 1999) was a popular trumpeter and bandleader.

Over his career, he recorded more than 50 albums, including four gold

and one platinum. "Honey in the Horn" reached No. 3 on Billboard's

Popular Music Album Chart in 1963; "Sugar Lips" won Billboard's

favorite instrumentalist of 1965.

Herb Alpert: trumpet

Herb Alpert was born on March 31, 1935, Los Angeles, California

1966 - Cited in the Guinness Book of World Records for having 5 albums

(at one time) in Billboard's Top Twenty -- a feat unequalled in

recording history.

To date, Herb Alpert has received a total of 16 Grammy nominations.

To date, Herb Alpert has sold over 72,000,000 records worldwide.

"You hear 3 notes and you know it's Herb Alpert !"( Miles Davis from a 1989 interview )

The Blues Brothers (HORN SECTION)

Tom "Triple Scale" Scott, Alan "Mr. Fabulous" Rubin, Lou "Blue Lou" Marini and Tom "Triple Scale" Scott.

Tom "Bones" Malone: Trombone, Trumpet, Saxophones

Tom Malone was born on June 16, 1947, Hattiesburg, Mississippi

Tom "Bones" Malone began his professional career on a job playing lead

trumpet with Brenda Lee at a club in Jackson, MS, while enrolled at the

University of Southern Mississippi. In response to a call from Warren

Covington, leader of The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra, he expanded into

contracting musicians. After transferring to North Texas State

University, Malone continued working as both a player and a contractor

for a variety of groups. Upon graduation, Malone worked in bands of

Woody Herman (1969), Duke Pearson (1970), Louie Bellson (1971), Doc

Severinsen and Blood, Sweat & Tears (1973). In 1973, Malone began a

close, 15-year association with Gil Evans, who exerted considerable

musical influence on him. With Evans, Malone recorded seven albums and

toured Europe, Japan and the Far East.

A call in the early 1970s from Saturday Night Live (SNL), a

new,revolutionary, late-night comedy show on NBC, proved highly

fruitful for Malone, who arranged for the show from 1975 to 1985. A

single SNL comedy skit featuring John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd

mushroomed into The Blues Brothers; Malone wrote the chart for that

first skit, then continued as an integral member of the Blues Brothers

musical organization. His writing and performance may be found on all

Blues Brothers recordings and in The Blues Brothers (Universal) film

score. In 1993, Malone reunited with SNL veterans Paul Schaffer,

keyboards, and Will Lee, bass, in the CBS Orchestra, now in its eighth

year as house band for The Late Show with David Letterman. In 1997,

Blues Brothers 2000 was released on Universal; the film score includes

considerable contribution by Malone.

As a leader, Malone is featured on Standards of Living (Big World) and

Soul Bones (Malaco). An extremely active writer and performer in New

York, Malone may be heard on a list of jazz, R&B, rock and

classical recordings far too extensive to ennumerate. A versatile

musician, Malone plays piccolo, flute, alto flute, soprano sax, alto

sax, tenor sax, baritone sax, piccolo trumpet, trumpet, flügelhorn,

bass trumpet, euphonium, trombone, bass trombone, tuba, electric bass,

and synthesizer programmer. In addition to performing, arranging,

producing and composing, Malone is an active clinician in educational

settings. Malone plays Bach trumpets and trombones and Selmer

saxophones. Joshua Brown

http://www.jazzmasters.nl/malone_tom.htm

Alan Rubin: trumpet, flugelhorn, and piccolo trumpet

Alan Rubin was born February 11, 1953.

Alan Rubin, also known as "Mr. Perfect" and "Mr. Fabulous", is an

American musician. He plays trumpet, flugelhorn, and piccolo trumpet.

Rubin was a graduate of the Julliard School of Music. He was a member

of the Saturday Night Live Band, with whom he played at the Closing

Ceremony of the 1996 Olympic Games. He played "Mr Fabulous" in the 1980

film The Blues Brothers, and was a regular member of the touring band.

Rubin has played an array of artists, such as Frank Sinatra, Frank

Zappa, Duke Ellington, Blood, Sweat and Tears, Sting, Aerosmith, The

Rolling Stones, Paul Simon, James Taylor, Frankie Valli, Eric Clapton,

Billy Joel, BB King, Miles Davis, Yoko Ono, Peggy Lee, Aretha Franklin,

James Brown, and Dr John.

Lou "Blue Lou" Marini: saxophone

Lou Marini was born on May 13, 1945, in Charleston, S.C. Marini grew up

in Ohio and attended North Texas State University. His list of

accomplishments include a stint as one of the original members of the

Saturday Night Live Band; playing as the saxophone soloist for Billy

Preston's band on "Nightlife" and numerous appearances on the "David

Letterman Show," at the Grammy Awards and in countless network TV

specials. He's also performed in films, including 1980's "The Blues

Brothers," in which he starred as "Blue Lou," and he contributed to

"The Wiz," "Bright Lights Big City," "True Colors," "Turner &

Hooch" and "A Family Thing."

Tom "Triple Scale" Scott: Saxophones

Tom Scott was born May 19, 1948, in Los Angeles, CA.

Since he was a teenager, Tom Scott has been consistent, a talented

multi-reedist with little or no interest in playing creative jazz. His

mother was a pianist and father a composer. Scott early on became a

studio musician and arranger. Able to play most reeds with little

difficulty, Scott performed with the Don Ellis and Oliver Nelson bands,

and his L.A. Express became one of the most successful pop-jazz groups

of the 1970s. Associations with Joni Mitchell, Carole King, and George

Harrison were just a few of his successful assignments in the pop world

and, although his 1992 GRP release Born Again was surprisingly

inventive, it was a one-time departure from crossover.

Kenny G: Saxophones

Kenneth Gorelick (born June 5, 1956), better known by his stage name

Kenny G, is an American saxophonist who was born in Seattle to a Jewish

family. He adopted his stage name when he turned professional at the

age of 17 and started playing in Barry White's Love Unlimited

Orchestra. He has a degree in accounting from the University of

Washington.

In 1981 Kenny G signed with Arista Records as a solo artist. He has

released many solo albums and collaborated with various artists

including Whitney Houston, Natalie Cole and Aretha Franklin. Influenced

by the likes of Grover Washington Jr., his own albums are usually

classified as smooth jazz.

His cross-over into pop music has lead to negative reviews from many

music critics, although he remains highly popular with the American

buying public. As of 2003, Kenny G was named the 25th-highest selling

artist in America by the RIAA, with 47.5 million albums sold in the USA

[1].

In 1994, Kenny G won the Grammy Award for Best Instrumental Composition for Forever in Love.

In 1997, Kenny G earned a place in the Guinness Book of World Records

for playing the longest note ever recorded on a saxophone. Kenny G held

an E for over forty five minutes, a record he still holds.

So who is you pick for best horn player.

I have named a few to get the ball rolling.......

Lot of horny music out there to select from.

Greg

[itsawomanthing]

OK Grog I agree with a couple of your picks but have a few of my own:

Chicago

Blood Sweat & Tears

Tower of Power

Brian Seltzer Orchestra

Big Bad Voodoo Daddy

let us not forget these very talented artists:

Miles Davis

Vince Wallace

Louis Armstrong

any and all of the great Big Bands

[boomac]

I would think, if given a little time, several of the jazz guys could come up with over 100 saxophone players that Kenny G would have to take a backseat to. I may be being too kind.

Heres 25

John Coltrane, Joe Henderson, Charlie Parker, Paul Desmond, Art Pepper, Eric Dolphy, Clifford Jordan, Lou Donaldson, Stan Getz, Gerry Mulligan, Teddy Edwards, Wayne Shorter, Dexter Gordon, Cannonball Adderly, Jackie McLean, Sonny Rollins, Von Freeman, Hank Mobley, Harold Land, Benny Golson, Lester Young, Wardell Gray, John Gilmore, Ike Quebec, Stanley Turrentine and Ben Webster.

It would seem there are several trumpet players that deserve more attention than Al Hurt or Herb Albert.

Heres 15

Lee Morgan, Freddie Hubbard, Louis Armstrong, Harry James, Dizzy Gillespie, Clifford Brown, Ziggy Elman, Donald Byrd, Miles Davis, Kenny Dorham, Thad Jones, Louis Smith, Maynard Ferguson, Art Farmer and Doc Severinson.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[Allan Songer]

Kenny G? I'm with Pat Matheny on this one.

Pat Metheny on Kenny G:

Question:

Pat, could you tell us your opinion about Kenny G - it appears you were quoted as being less than enthusiastic about him and his music. I would say that most of the serious music listeners in the world would not find your opinion surprising or unlikely - but you were vocal about it for the first time. You are generally supportive of other musicians it seems.

Pat's Answer:

Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. There was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records.

I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music.

But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune - consistently sharp.

Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years. And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement.

Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.

And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.

As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well.

But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until recently".

Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music.

This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him - and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.

But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-***, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.

His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.

Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay.

Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is different.

There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that. (I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines, etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.)

[sputnik]

Chuck Mangione deserves mention. Not among the all time best but I really liked his sound.

[Colin]

ditto on Tom Scott, what a great peice on Kenny G!!!!

[boomac]

Actually, I like Tom Scott a lot and have most of his CDs. "Born Again" is probably my favorite. Of the newer guys, John Klemmer and Eric Marenthal are pretty good as well.

[Allan Songer]

The most obviously "gifted" young horn player is James Carter. His technique is unreal.

[nuclearay]

Dang, I wanted to see some opinions on my instrument: the French Horn.

[grog]

For the record....

I really do like "Al Hirt" and "Herb Alpert" a great deal.

I like the horn section of "Chicago Transit Authority" but they would have been much better as a instrumental group.

I was very impressed with the quality of the The Blues Brothers brand,

especially the horn section, all great in their own right.

Kenny G..... Well I included Kenny G. since he has the "popular following".

I do have a few Kenny G. CD but they remain in a box far away for my sound system.

I also like Chuck Mangione, Louis Armstrong, Harry James,Miles Davis and Dizzy Gillespie.

There are a lot of great horn players out there.

Greg

[fletcherkane]

Phil Driscoll is my favorite trumpeter. Great technique and when add his Armstrongesque grizzly vocals, you can't go wrong...

[theryugobuddy]

Great essay from Pat Metheny--where was that published? Of all the jazz music I own, I 've got the most by him--

He is an incredible talent, and surrounds himself with great, intereresting musicians for his recordings. I've seen him 4 times. I'm happy to hear him defend "sacred ground". But, it still seems a little naive to think that most musicians/artists aren't out there to make the biggest dollar they can make regardless of how they do it. Rappers sample classic riffs, and covers of old songs are often the biggest hits for many bands. Even jazzers do standards to make their recordings more familiar so they will sell more. They say they are honoring the original, but that cover will sell more albums. The masses probably think Kenny G is a better (ugh!) artist than Satchmo, so he jumped on that cash cow. Blasphemous--yes, Unexpected-no. And it will happen again-- maybe Celine Dion dueting with Billie Holiday ( because she wants to show the world she has a better voice!)--

Rod Stewart does his standards albums, Michael Bolton does his R&B--- I choose not to listen to the less talented, bankrupt crap out there--but I know its out there for the masses. I detest Kenny G-- when my wife puts on his Christmas music in a couple months, I'll leave the house on an "errand".

For horn players--I like Sonny Rollins and Charlie Rouse. James Carter knocks the socks off--

And I've always loved Van Morrison's horn section--

[Aggie Klipsch]

Clark Terry gets my vote on trumpet. Played with Skitch Henderson w/ The Tonight Show. Maynerd Ferguson is a screamer on that thing. Not much tone but can he can wail.

John Klemmer for the sax. Very smooth tone and not a lot of notes to boggle the mind. Good call on Tom Scott. Charlie Mingus is another talented player.

Artie Shaw on clarinet is one of the smoothest around.

Can't remember who plays on Spyro Gyra but he has a nice sound, now I remember Jay Beckenstein. Joe Zawinul is a good one as well. Too many good players out there to consider. Cheers.

[SteelerFan]

I used to like Herb Alpert, but I only played trumpet for a few years in grade school so my opinion doesn't really count. My Dad however put himself through college and medical school playing trumpet in nightclubs and while he wouldn't come out and pick anyone as the best, his favorite was Harry James.

[boomer9911]

I agree with Herb Alpert but also mention is John Helliwell of Supertramp.

[garymd]

Great article Allan!

Boomac already listed many of the great horn players and although I could add a few more, I think you get the point. I don't think everyone here has listened to the majority of the great 50s/60s jazz horn players (I hadn't either until a few years ago) but they should! If anyone is interested in a compilation that includes many of those listed above, PM me and I'll get you a copy. You may change your list once you've heard them. Nothing against guys like Chuck Mangione and Al Hirt, but to put them on a "best horn player" list above John Coltrane, Ben Webster, Hank Mobley, Joe Henderson, Charlie Parker, Dexter Gordon, Art Pepper, Sonny Rollins, Miles Davis, Lee Morgan, etc., etc. is just absurd!

[cmay119]

My vote would go to Leroi Moore from the Dave Matthews Band. He's a very talented Saxophonist.

[jheis]

First of all I don't think woodwind players are considered to be "horn

players." And Kenny G. sucks no matter what you call him.

Kinda like calling "smooth jazz," jazz.

That said, I'd vote for Clifford Brown. Died way too young in a

car accident at 26 - would have been 75 this year. A birthday

celebration was held tonight at Yoshi's.

His son Clifford Brown, Jr. is a DJ (and a fine one at that) on our local jazz station KCSM.

James

[bookman]

This is a thought provoking thread. I always liked Paul Desmond's sound,so clean.Charlie Parker,Bert K. too many to name.