Please explain KHorn performance

[Jeff Matthews]

I have Cornwalls and a Crown Microtech 1200. As a rule, I could never turn the volume up as high as half - many times, I could just barely go about mid-way between 1/3 and 1/2. At that level, you could see and feel those Corns' woofers huffing and puffing - but they definitely sounded good.

Got Klipschorns. These beasts take volumes much higher - about 2/3 (maybe more?). At that high, I still don't get an impression they are huffing and puffing at all - it is just loud enough to make you paranoid.

My question is why do the KHorns take so much more. My brother tried to tell me it's because the bigger mid-horn in the Khorn takes alot more, so you can push through more power without forcing it to the woofer (like sharing the load better). I don't know about this theory. But the KHorns definitely take alot more, and I know the Corn woofers would have burned at the same levels. Yet, they share the same woofers. How come?

[sunnysal]

This really depends on room size etc. but in general the horn loaded bass bin in the khorn would have less cone movement and distortion for a given DB level than a corn woofer, horn loading allows that ya´know. the mids and highs should be roughly the same though so the bass bin is the principal difference. tony

[ricktate]

I would think it should be the other way around,,,,so maybe the K-Horns are not sealed...maybe something wrong with the K-Horns.I have LaScalas and Cornwalls side by side and loudness wise the Scala can beat the Corns but not in the bass dept. but with them both on you cant tell.Maybe you should check the crossover connections and drivers.Rick

[artto]

This has more to do with how the bass range is handled, not the midrange horn. The Khorn and Cornwall use the same drivers for bass, mid and treble. The Cornwall midrange horn is smaller/shorter. The Cornwall uses a bass reflex/vented box design for the bass range. It does not have the efficiency/sensitivity of a large horn loaded design, but takes up less space, is smaller/lighter and allows more flexibility in placement which in turn allows more flexibility in the listening area and ideal listening position, albeit, with the trade-off of higher distortion.

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Since the Khorn is more efficient, its bass driver cone will have less excursion distance to produce the same acoustic output for a given electrical input. The Khorns folded corner horn design utilizing the rooms walls and floor as an extension of the actual speaker structure (technical description: bifurcated trihedral exponential wave transmission line) provides the same (similar) performance as if the bass speaker were 8 times larger than what it actually is.

In speaker design there are basically a number of trade-offs that one must usually balance, one against another, sensitivity (efficiency), frequency response, size, distortion, and polar coverage. It might be helpful to think of these things in terms of a five-way teeter-totter (seasaw) where changing the balance of one side, affects the other sides in the opposite way. In other words, if you want, for example, to have more extended low frequency response, and a smaller size, then the trade-off might be sensitivity goes down, polar response becomes more narrow (focused), and distortion goes up.

[edwinr]

What artto said. []

[Duke Spinner]

take volumes much higher - about 2/3 (maybe more?).

2/3 volume at 600 watts .....????

Yowser .... !! .....can you still hear yer Drumset ...?

[IB Slammin]

What artto said. []

What artto said also,.............BUT...........................

My 33 year experience with Khorns and LaS,(many years ago)and from then to the present with Cornwalls.........

The reason one backs off the volume, is because something starts to break down. That being, distortion levels become unacceptable. I can't remember ever wanting to run down the SPL's when the sound was clean.

When I was forced to back off a CW, it wasn't because of my displeasure with the LF.

I turned it down because the K600 (and crossover) was chewing my legs off! With a better mid-horn and crossover, now the only reason to "lift" is due to things falling from the walls.[]

Regards,

Terry

EDIT: ....... These beasts take volumes much higher - about 2/3 (maybe more?). Really? Granted my CW bins are heavily braced, my average "sweet-spot" SPL is from 100 to 110db and with acceptable diaphragm excursions.

What levels do you listen to? (Cornerhorns and/or CW's.

tc

[colterphoto1]

'K600 (and crossover) was chewing my legs off'

VERY well put, but at low to moderate/high volume levels, doncha just LOVE the CW's?

Michael

[IB Slammin]

'K600 (and crossover) was chewing my legs off'

VERY well put, but at low to moderate/high volume levels, doncha just LOVE the CW's?

Michael

You bet I do brother!![]

I would never imply that the stock Cornwall is not a great speaker. It's just that the basic design can be so much better. In the mod attempt to clean up the mid range and brace the box, I discovered that the "old girls" can take lots of clean power and produce above spec SPL's. (and sound wonderful doing it)

Before BEC chimes in[].......121db can be destructive to the K33.....But that was at an estimated +/- 300w of imput.

Following the mod's, I would simply continue to run up the volume until it didn't sound good. The sound was great so I pushed it up.[:'(]

Now I use a SPL meter on a tripod at the sweet spot. Its the only way for me to know when "enough is enough".[]

Terry

[Daddy Dee]

The issue with the mid-horn doesn't really have anything to do with the bass, but there are a couple of things at work here.

The first is the way the Klipschorn loads the room. Of course, bass is the most noticeable feature, but backed into the corner the HF loads the room differently than even a LaScala and has a bigger sound.

The second is that in a Khorn (or LaScala) the mid horn is bigger and crossed at a lower frequency. Heresy is crossed at 700hz. Cornwall at 600hz and Khorn/LaScala at 400hz.

In each model there is progressively less midrange material delivered by the woofer and more on the midhorn. I think the 400hz midhorn on the Khorn contributes to smoother midrange and more pleasing, IMO.

[Jeff Matthews]

take volumes much higher - about 2/3 (maybe more?).

2/3 volume at 600 watts .....????

Yowser .... !! .....can you still hear yer Drumset ...?

No way. I'm way past drums at that level. At that point, I just want to sit for a a few minutes and go "Wow, these jam!"

But, I think it's more like 200 watts, isn't it? If I run K-Horns out of the Microtech 1200 on only a 2-channel system, I think it runs around 300 watts/channel. I think the amp's specs are 600 watts/channel at 2 ohms, 400 or something at 4 ohms and 300 or something at 8 ohms. Am I not at 8 ohms? I don't know all the science to this. I could try to figure it out, but somebody just tell me. Thanks.

BTW, still don't think anybody provided the right answer on why I can push more volume through a K-Horn. All the explanations about folded horn and placement had to do with why it might sound louder at the SAME volume.

Why can I actually push alot MORE volume through a KHorn than a Cornwall?

[Jeff Matthews]

What artto said. []

What artto said also,.............BUT...........................

My 33 year experience with Khorns and LaS,(many years ago)and from then to the present with Cornwalls.........

The reason one backs off the volume, is because something starts to break down. That being, distortion levels become unacceptable. I can't remember ever wanting to run down the SPL's when the sound was clean.

When I was forced to back off a CW, it wasn't because of my displeasure with the LF.

I turned it down because the K600 (and crossover) was chewing my legs off! With a better mid-horn and crossover, now the only reason to "lift" is due to things falling from the walls.[]

Regards,

Terry

EDIT: ....... These beasts take volumes much higher - about 2/3 (maybe more?). Really? Granted my CW bins are heavily braced, my average "sweet-spot" SPL is from 100 to 110db and with acceptable diaphragm excursions.

What levels do you listen to? (Cornerhorns and/or CW's.

tc

All the rest of my stereo equipment is the same as when I had the Corns hooked up. Just wanting to know why I can push more volume through the KHorns.

Also, I wasn't short-changing the Corns by any means. I have had them for 20 years. This year, I finally decided "what the heck" and impulsively bought the KHorns. I hadn't bought any stereo equipment in 20 years. I could have as easily died happy with my Corns. They are fantastic speakers.

How do you measure dB? Folks keep saying they listen to music at xxx dB. Now, they are asking me. I have no idea how to answer. I suppose you have to buy a gadget. If so, I'll pass.

Michael Colter has a Crown Microtech 1200. Maybe he can tell us what the level is when the volume is up 2/3d's.... Michael?

[pauln]

Too damn loud !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jeff Matthews]

Too damn loud !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What'd he say? []

[sfogg]

"How do you measure dB? Folks keep saying they listen to music at xxx dB. Now, they are asking me. I have no idea how to answer. I suppose you have to buy a gadget. If so, I'll pass. "

Yes, a SPL meter. Radio Shack has/had a couple of popular models. The cheaper analog model was around $35 IIRC.

Shawn

[IB Slammin]

The issue with the mid-horn doesn't really have anything to do with the bass, but there are a couple of things at work here.

The first is the way the Klipschorn loads the room. Of course, bass is the most noticeable feature, but backed into the corner the HF loads the room differently than even a LaScala and has a bigger sound.

The second is that in a Khorn (or LaScala) the mid horn is bigger and crossed at a lower frequency. Heresy is crossed at 700hz. Cornwall at 600hz and Khorn/LaScala at 400hz.

In each model there is progressively less midrange material delivered by the woofer and more on the midhorn. I think the 400hz midhorn on the Khorn contributes to smoother midrange and more pleasing, IMO.

Big Dee,

............"The issue with the mid-horn doesn't really have anything to do with the bass, but there are a couple of things at work here". ..........

I agree, but only until the mids sound so bad that you can't stand it, and turn it down. I think he can put more power into the khorn because it is less distorted. Put the same power into a CW, and the mids make him want to turn it down. Am I making it too simple?[*-)]

[Daddy Dee]

Terry,

What you are saying sounds right to me.

[Jeff Matthews]

IB and DD, you might be on to the answer. Specifically, I found the limit of Corns on a particular song. I think it was "A One Girl Revolution" by Superchick (Okay, I admit I jammed to it - but only a few times []). The song is recorded loud, I think. Anyway, I cranked it, and the woofer seemed to belch pretty hard at one point. Then, I freaked and turned it down without delay. I could swear I even smelled a burning smell. Speakers are still okay, though.

With the crossover frequencies higher in the Corn, I guess you're pushing more of the music through the woofers in the Corns than you are through the KHorns.

Sound right?

[D-MAN]

The Khorn is simply more efficient than the CW in that its woofer (although the SAME exact woofer) is HORN-LOADED. Horn loading by definition implies a compression/resistance is applied to the cone, restricting its movement - this is "made up for" by the transformer-like ability of the horn to propagate a small-high velocity wave motion into a large area one of less velocity. So although the cone moves less, the movement is made more efficient due to the nature of the horn coupling to the atmosphere.

The CW is UNLIMITED in its excursion in both directions of cone movement, and being a direct radiator, is literally "flapping in the breeze".

There is less efficient coupling, so the driver naturally has to work harder (excursion is larger) per given SPL.

Being that the direct radiating cone is less efficient, it is likely that it will be over-driven at loud volumes to acheive the same SPL that the horn-loaded driver would produce at a somewhat reduced wattage. Hence over-excursion... and higher IM distortion caused by unequal excursion and cone deformation. Add to that power compression, and now you got a sonic mess. It has NOTHING to do with the crossover point(s).

The answer is, the direct radiator is less dampened in excursion and is working against less restriction, so it is far more likely to be over extended.

It is also far more susceptable to cone break-up at long excursions.

Any of which is guaranteed to sound bad and possibly lead to damage.

DM

[Duke Spinner]

Good Q ....Dana

what is the Power Compression of the K-33

I don't think eminece is gonna volunteer that

most JBL's , for example ... are 1.5%