Is the RF-7 a big step up from the RF-3??

[metalmaniac]

My secondary basement system consists of the RF-3's driven by an Nad 320bee and Ah! Super Tjoeb 4000. Im looking to upgrade the speakers and possibly the amp and I am basically looking for an all around better sound, more detail and clarity as well as more impact and slam in the bass department. Im considering the RF-7's as they seem to be the most logical upgrade, and Im wondering if they are that much better than the RF-3 to warrant the much higher price, are they that much better in the midrange and treble detail and clarity? Also considering an amplifier upgrade, Id like to stick with an integrated, but ive read that the RF-7 is a pretty tough load, are integrateds out of the question with these speakers? What are some good matches with the RF-7? Ive been checking out some of the integrateds on the second hand market like the Sim Audio I-5, Arcam A32, Bryston b100sst and Musical Fidelity A5....etc But seperates are also a possibility. I listen mainly to all kinds of rock and the room is mid sized roughly 19x14x8ft or so. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Deang]

"Is the RF-7 a big step up from the RF-3??"

Yes.

You need this preamp: http://www.juicymusicaudio.com/web_pages/Merlin2.html

The amplifier of your choice: anywhere from 50 to 300 solid state watts or 50 or so tube watts.

My network mod for the RF-7.

[MarkBK]

The RF7's are awesome - I own RF5's but have listened extensively to the 7's for music and home theater. I recently heard them with a Marantz receiver and universal player (DVD/CD,etc) and the sound was great! Don't remember which model receiver - but it was the current line and was in an HT theater setting - all 7 series with a MITS 55" HDTV - I audtioned them with several rock CD's and had the place rockin' with very little effort. Given the room size, I think you can put together a great system to meet your needs using the 7's with a good receiver - Denon or Marantz.

Mark

[metalmaniac]

Thanks for the info guys. But a reciever?? That would be going backwards i think. Im looking more for a high end integrated or possibly seperates. Ans most likely will stick with SS, I have owned plenty of differant tube amps and I am definitly a SS guy. I like the bass control and transient speed of SS with the heavy rock and metal that i listen to. Just wondering which brands have the best synergy with Klipsch.

Thanks

[metalmaniac]

Are the RF-7's more clear,detailed and open sounding than the RF-3?? Thats what im looking for the RF-3's arent so good in that regard compared to other speakers ive heard.

[cjgeraci]

If you want to do it right, heed Dean's advice. As a former owner of RF-3s and RF-7s, I can tell you that the difference is dramatic. However, the RF-7s are much more demanding speakers. For music, and especially rock, I would not mate the RF-7s up to a receiver - or even a nice integrated.

It is advisable to go separates, if possible. The best combo for RF-7s I have heard has been a tube preamp (similar to what Dean suggested) and 200 watt (or higher) solid state amp. If you want to stay solid state for the preamp, Rotel, B&K or Classe all provide good choices in terms of a preamp.

Carl.

[CAS]

Better clarity? More slam?

RF-3's are pretty potent with good SQ. I can't tell from your profile if you have a sub. Perhaps if you had a competent sub to give you the "slam" you're looking for your mains can be crossed over so less is demanded from them and you can turn them up louder with more clarity. If you're looking for overall better bass and volume while retaining clarity, then perhaps look at the cost/benefit:

RF-7's: $700 X 2 = $1400

Amp: $900

Preamp/Proc: $600

Total: $2900

Or...

One very competent sub: est. $1200-$1900

[Fish]

The 3s are great,the 7s are a big step up.The 7s do need plenty of

power(as was mentioned)a few hundred watts is when they really kick

in,imo.

[MrMcGoo]

The RF-7s are highly detailed when driven by good electronics. Sound quality can be excellent. Solid state amps in the range of 200 to 400 wpc work the best IMO. The mid-range control in particular improves when power is above 200 wpc.

A subwoofer is optional in 2 channel listening with RF-7s on a stout amp, but is highly recommended for added clarity.

Bill

PS: The DeanG crossovers do take the 7s to the next level. B

[Audio Flynn]

Is a KT-88 amp a big step up from an EL-84?

Does a bear... oh forget it.

Yes get the RF-7 and do what Dean said.

[rsp1068]

A step up , yes. A big step up, well that is subjective. I run 7's with a VTL pre, Rotel RB-1090 power, and it is to die for. My 3's , also with the VTL, and 1090 is to die for as well. The 7's go deeper, pound on you're chest from 8' away deeper, again but, the 3's are a quite capable speaker. The 3's are quite capable of some pretty incredible sound for their size. The gear you drive either with makes such a difference, its incredible. They are both capable of resolution that is to die for, as well as slam. Just $.02 more..........

[metalmaniac]

I donno, resolution to die for from the RF-3's?? I found them to be ok for the price but I wouldnt say they have resolution to die for. Im hoping the RF-7's are significantly better in the detail and clarity departments as this is where I found the RF-3's to be lacking. They dont have that open and detailed sound Ive heard from some other speaker, albeit more expensive. ?? Also do the RF-7's really need 200w + to sound thier best?? Seems like an aweful lot of power for such senstive speakers, I can see understand they need a high quality high current amp since the impeadance and phase angles are a bit difficult, but why so much power?? You mean to tll me a high quality but lower powered amp, my Naim Nap250 for example will not get the best from the RF-7's?? What amps in the $1500 new or used price range would you guys reccomend?

thanks

[jacksonbart]

They are 4 louder, btw this amp goes to 11.

[frankphess]

I have to second the tube pre with a solid state amp. I was listening to all solid state and thought the 7's sounded pretty good. However, last week I got a Bottlehead tube pre-amp to go with an Anthem MCA-20 and it has taken the 7's to a whole nother level. I can not see ever going back to a solid state pre, and can't wait to hear what tube mono's (some day) will sound like. I did not understand what all the rage was. I do now.

[MrMcGoo]

Why do the RF-7s need such big solid state amps? Because solid state amps do not usually have 4 ohm taps like tube amps.

Solid state amps need to have sufficient output devices to produce the required current without voltage drops. This has nothing to do with high sensitivity; it has to do with frequency response which is a function of voltage amplitude. Big solid state amps have more output devices per channel so that they can hit 400 wpc continuously. At lower power levels that we actually listen at, the amp plays within its linear range, i.e., it has a wider linear range of output.

You are after not only linear output, but also headroom. The headroom helps to prevent clipping and improves transient response. Music and action movies have brief transients that run as high as 30 decibels. A 30 decibel transient requires 1,000 times the power for that brief transient to be heard as intended.

Bigger solid state amps of quality are also more capable of shedding the heat that an amp produces, i.e., there will be less of a tendency to overheat. An amp that runs at lower temperatures will usually last longer.

Bill

[metalmaniac]

I must disagree that more output transistors is a good thing. The best SS amps ive hear usually use a single pair of output transistors. The same seems to be true of tube amps in my opinion when you start adding more and more output tubes the sound quality descreases and power increases. Are the RF-3's that much easier to drive compared to the RF-7's?? Because Ive had no problem driving the RF-3's to very loud levels with the 25w Sugden a21. I should probably mention that i will only be using the speakers for music and I dont listen at rock concert levels, i would like to have my hering for a while;) So basically you guys are saying if say i had $2k to spend and I had the choice between say a very powerful amp like a Rotel 1090 or the less powerful but higher quality amp like a Pas Aelph3, the Rotel is gonna be the better match with the RF-7's?? Part of the reason I like Klipsch is that you can go with a much higher quality but lower powered amplifier and still get plenty of volume from them, that way you are getting better sound quality. Am I all wrong in thinking this way. Also what about amps like the old Krell KSA50 or similar super high current class A 50 watt amps??

Thanks

[MrMcGoo]

Since you already know the results before you listen to the combination, do what ever you like.

Bill

[DrWho]

I wouldn't call it a big step up by any means...but I often have a minority opinion on the forum in regards to such things []

If you're looking for a REAL step up, then I would highly recommend

looking into some of the newer heritage series. Sure it'll cost more,

but they will leave the RF-7's in the dust. Another alternative is to

go used heritage, where it will be cheaper and still wipe the RF-7's

off the mat.

One thing that I'm not in the minority in, is that the RF-7's struggle

in the midrange...sure they have a lot of power down low, but those 10"

woofers (despite how over-engineered) aren't naturally good at

reproducing 2kHz. And then the low impedance swing requires that you

have a "powerful" SS amp - basically something built to play down to 2

ohms. (Btw, I'm not saying the midrange sucks either....it's just not a strong point of the design).

Anyways, I think you'd get far better performance out of a cornwall,

chorus, forte, khorn. I'd suggest lascalas too, but you would need to

mate them with a very potent sub. You might also look at the CF4 and the KLF-30.

[Fish]

I've had 3s/5s and 7s,the 3s were very nice but if you think the 7s aren't a big step up you haven't heard the 7s potential,imo.

[Doug C]

I went from RF5's to RF7's a couple years ago and this was a big step up in detail. The 7's will however immediately reveal any weakness in your source. In my case the 7's had more glare in the high end which was just a faithful reproduction of the weakness in my CD player output.

I upgraded my digital front end to a Monarchy 24/96 upsampler followed by a Bel Canto DAC-2. The increased soundstage size, detail and smoothness on the high and low end were hard to believe. The imaging is so good I find I typically set the volume about 20% less compared to my setup prior to the DAC upgrade. Music is just a lot more enveloping and satisfying with a good DAC. These speakers virtually disapear. I can sit directly in front of the left or right speaker and still have great center imaging. This was not the case prior to the digital front end upgrade.

I've tried a bunch of preamps over the years and all of them seem to sacrifice a tad in the open soundstage department. My 2 Watt Decware amp has a volume control so I run with no preamp for best sound quality.

My listening room is 13' x 21' with a large opening into the same sized kitchen / dinning area and I never lack for volume. Primary listening is Rock at high levels. The Decware amp mates well with low impediance speakers and has no problem driving the RF7's to high volumes and this is running the RF7's full range from my amp. Again I find crossovers upstream of the amp tend to colapse the soundstage somewhat so I avoid them.

My speakers are positioned to privide best soundstage and imaging which means they are out from the front wall and corners. Since this offers little corner reinforcement for the bass output from the 7's, low frequency output begins to drop off below 70hz. I have my corner placed 18" velodyne sub connected via speaker level connections directly from the amp output binding posts. This is the best bass of any of my systems over the past 30 years, it integrates perfectly.

If you want realistic kick drum slam then I don't think you can beat a propely placed quality sub. A sub with a volume remote is ideal since recordings can vary significantly as far as the recorded level of low frequencies. For about 60% of my CD collection my sub volume is perfect. On the other 40% the recorded low frequency levels are a little low (presentation is slightly thin) or high (presentation is slightly muddy). Having the ability to tweak the sub volume a notch or two from your listening position is handy.

I have a number of quality amps and preamps laying around and swap things out from time to time. It's usually only a day or two before I'm back to the simplest setup with the fewest components in the chain. From a clarity and openess standpoint none of the SS amps I've tried have been able to beat the little Decware amp. The Decware amp and RF7's just seem to be a perfect match.

Just my 2 cents,

Doug