I Bought Klipschorns :)

[Allan Songer]

fact

Nonsense

[Duke Spinner]

Klipsh speakers run okay on moderate power; some systems sound pretty good... but...

you guys that insist on screwin around with receivers, old dusty low power tube amps, integrated amps and anything under 150 watts will never hear the full potential of a Klipsch speaker

go ahead and call BS, it's true

Nonsense

it's the part about " dusty old tubes " ....

that gotcha, Allan ....isn't it ..??..[6]

[jpm]

I challenge you to hook up an amp of at least 400 watts per side at 8ohms and honestly tell me that it doesn't bring your horns alive. You're hearing impaired if you think otherwise. Seriously, for anybody that think big power doesn't matter, go hook up a big amp and see for yourselves. Otherwise, get over it.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Yuck - now we are going to get into the whole tube / solid state debate.

Meagin, Just replace your caps in your crossovers and get the EQ. This is a cheap investment and the parts will probably wind up in your final system.

Lets talk about clipping. Clipping referrs to when an amp reached a peak, but cannot reproduct it correctly, thus the graph of the same is "clipped" off at where the peak should be.

When a solid state amp clips, it sounds harsh and horrible. But, solid state amps can produce huge amounts of power for a low price. The Pro stuff is a real bargain. that Crown, at $675 is so cheap for clean power.

Tube amps produce less power on paper, but when they clip, it does nto sound bad because the distortion is a different type. A 100 wpc tube amp will completely blow away a 100 wpc Solid state amp, but will cost an enormous amount more.

Here is how that math works, every tims you double power, you get a 3 decible increase. You can see that power gets used up very quickly on peaks. BUT, a tube amp can clip and sound good, so much less power is needed. Lets say two amps are pushing 10 wpc continuous, and than there is a 12 db peak. The tube amp can clip and sound good (maybe with less punch if it is, say a 15 wpc amp) while the Solid state amp must produce 80 watts for the same peak. Now, lets say that the amps hit a 21 db peak. The tube amp still sounds good, but again, with less hard punch, but now that solid state amp must produce 740 watts (I did the math in my head and didn't check it). You can see that the solid states have a lot of power, but it gets used up very quickly because you do not want a solid state amp to clip.

To make things worse, a 65 wpc SS amp does nto equal another 65 wpc amp. My HK630 at 40 wpc completely blows away an old Denon 95 wpc receiver that I have. My QSC amp is rated at 200 wpc but is measured with a load from 20 HZ to 20kHZ. Other amps are measured with a burst tone at 1 kHZ, thus they will measure with much more power. I learned this the hard way as a teenager with car amps. I did nto want to buy a Rockfor Fosgate amp because it was only "20 wpc." after buying other amps and wasting my money, I bought the Rockford amp. This thing just crushed other "high poer" amps that I had. Rockford measured their amps differently and they make really high quality stuff.

The only thing that I can say is don't spend any money right now until you get a handle on all of this. The caps are cheap and if you upgrade crossovers, you can definately sell your AA's for what you spent on the caps. The Behringer EQ is a great piece of gear that you wil keep (even though many bash them as cheap asian crap). Make sure you get the mike too.

I didn't read if you had a subwoofer or not. I run one and like it. If you like bass you should add one (remember, it should not sound like it has a subwoofer, you should just notice it when it is off). As I tweak the K Horns, I find that I turn the sub down and down, but it definately adds a lot. (I now have a Yamaha dividing network with luxury of being able to turn off individual drivers in the K Horns (tweeter, mids, woofer) to hear exactly what the others are doing - really nice tuning tool).

For what its worth, a tube upgrade in my AH! Cd player (cheap russian tubes) changed the bass dramitcally. There are so many variables.

You have the advantage of living in a huge city. Take some people up on their offers and go listen. I heard the sound that I was after when buying a set of heresys. The guy had a set of magneplanars and two 300 wpc tube amps (and subwoofers - of course). It just sounded so right. Female vocals were just rigth there.

Just go slowly, it will all come together.

Chris

[Allan Songer]

I challenge you to hook up an amp of at least 400 watts per side at 8ohms and honestly tell me that it doesn't bring your horns alive. You're hearing impaired if you think otherwise. Seriously, for anybody that think big power doesn't matter, go hook up a big amp and see for yourselves. Otherwise, get over it.

Ok, NOW I understand!! You are evaluating what you "see" when you hook up a 400 watt amp to a pair of Khorns!!! It all makes sense now . . .

[tigerwoodKhorns]

CAUTION: TUBE / SS WAR ABOUT TO START

take cover now and protect your kids!

Hey, just out of curiosity:

Which is better, SET or Push/Pull?

Isn't Behringer top of the line pro stuff?

Which crossover is the best?

Capacitors don't make a difference do they?

Don't those little Bose Cubes blow away that ancient old big Klipsch stuff?

[3dzapper]

[Y]

[Allan Songer]

The worst sounding "hi fi" I have ever heard consisted of a pair of Altec A7 VOT speakers being driven by a 400 watt Phase Linear amp and matching preamp being fed by a direct drive Denon turntable with

a Shure cartridge. I still have nightmares about how this system sounded and it was about 20 years ago when I was subjected to it. The owner was playing mostly sound effects records, but he did pull out the Harry James direct to disc LP and some Classical direct to disc stuff too and it ALL made my ears bleed . . .

[Jeff Matthews]

Folks, JPM is on spot. Anyone who finds they need to add a sub to KHorns is not hearing what those KHorns can do - period. The KHorns do it all by themselves.

The difference between the tubes from what I've been able to gather is that they have less power but sound "oh so nice." So, the difference would seem to be "jazz brunch" vs. "jazz concert."

I would maintain there is no 40 or 60 watt tube that could even remotely touch the dynamics delivered by my Crown - no way!

You have speakers capable of 400 watt peaks, and if you have a 60 watt amp, you just stuck a big governor on them. It'd be like putting a governor on a Corvette and limiting its speed to 60 mph.

Ever heard a 200 watt thump against a KHorn woofer? Ain't no replacing that through a 60 watt anything. Songs are comprised of a multitude of peaks and lows. With weaker amps, you miss all the differences in note levels. You should hear a mile of difference between notes, but since you have that "governor" on there, you hear 100 yards' difference. Just ain't no comparison. A 200-watt sound next to a 5 watt sound is nowhere close to a 60 watt sound next to the same 5 watt sound. So, dynamics are lost. Then, without the difference, you certainly have no way to appreciate it as much.

So what do you want - "brunch" or "concert?" There are too many folks on here who've been to the brunch alot and think it's a concert. That's the problem going on in this debate. As I stated previously, I had to show the seller of my KHorns what they would do. He put on a Marantz, and I insisted he audition them with a better amp, which we did. Then, he says he never heard the KHorns like that before. Damn right! Not enough people know what these can do.

[Allan Songer]

The difference between the tubes from what I've been able to gather is that they have less power but sound "oh so nice." So, the difference would seem to be "jazz brunch" vs. "jazz concert."

I would maintain there is no 40 or 60 watt tube that could even remotely touch the dynamics delivered by my Crown - no way!

.

Nonsense

[Tom Mobley]

>> "bottom line, massive power cures all ills"

Been a long time since I've seen anything like that on this forum.

[MarkBK]

"You have speakers capable of 400 watt peaks, and if you have a 60 watt amp, you just stuck a big governor on them." ================ Would you hazard a guess as to what level of distortion is produced by a set of Klipschorn drivers at 400W of input? md

LOL! I think we'd all be too busy ducking the flying diaphragms to guess!

[mikebse2a3]

Actually, I did have an EQ before. It went away after I got my Crown - no lie.

Here's more of a mathematical/visual way to show what you're missing...

Music is a combo of sounds at various levels. The variance in levels is constantly changing - that's what is meant by dynamics.

Now, picture each of the notes (by arbitray assignment of levels):

10

40

100

30

70

240

10

15

400

30

60

120

130

20

20

200

250

200

Convert these to height where the first note starts on the left, and each note is to the right of the preceding note. In other words, you'd have a graph with a bunch of vertical lines - some taller than others. Go ahead and draw it out for a good exercise. Won't take 20 seconds.

Now, draw a horizontal line at 65 straight through all those vertical lines. What you're missing is everything above the horizontal line at 65. The result by capping everything at 65 is loss of dynamics.

An EQ will not replace that.

Jeff good analogy

I agree the EQ can't replace what is caped off in your example. Another point that I think could play a part though is if a room is coloring the sound by boosting certain frequencies and cancelling others one result can be a sense of a loss of dynamics also because again the high peaks to lowest peaks balance is being altered and masked. Lets face it the room is a hugh Equalizer that works in the frequency and time domain and its affect on clarity, detail, dynamics and imaging is larger than any reasonably good quality amp. When you clean the room sound up you will always sense an increase in clarity and dynamics.

The sense of dynamics is a function of the loudest to quitest notes in a certain time period. My question for anyone is what maximum SPLs are you trying to reach (with Khorns in this case)? The ultimate SPL you hear at the listening position is going to be effected by room volume, the amplifier's power limits, the speakers ability to absorbe and actually turn that power level into acoustical power. Just because an amplifier could say input 400 watts into a Khorn doesn't mean it will actually be of any benefit because at some point power compression from the speaker system will set in and any power increase will only be absorbed and turned into heating the voicecoil.

I would like to share some personel experience about different amplifiers used in one system/room setup.

The room itself has a cathedrial ceiling and is easily 35' by 25' and also opening into a large kitchen and large dining room as well so as one can see this is a pretty large space for a domestic listening enviroment.

Amplifiers used in this system have been the following:

Phase Linear (Solid State, sorry I don't remember the model but very high power)

VTL 100 watt Tube Amps (Not sure of the model no.)

Marantz 8B (Tube maybe 30 to 40 watts?)

McIntosh MC30s (Tube 30 watt mono bloc)

McIntosh MC2000 (Tube 130 watt mono bloc)

AES SE1 2A3 (Tube approx. 5 Watts)

H.H. Scott 222c (Tube approx. 20 Watts)

Just to give a couple of examples of some music we have listened to which have good dynamics;

Buddy Guy "Blues Singer"

Junior Wells "Come On In This House"

How did the amps rank/perform?

First I would like to say the MC30s are more affected by Tube Rolling than any other amp I've ever heard and can go from sounding as good as any of the above to having some audible issues in this particular room/setup just by using different tubes.

All these Amps where able to reach some very realistic sound levels and excellent dynamic sound.

The VTL's and the Phase Linear for whatever reasons never really sounded good in this system. There where some noise issues with the VTLs(input sensitivity) and both just didn't have the realism of the rest of the amps mentioned. In a different system this could easily change I suppose.

AES SE1 2A3: Of course if you just love cranking the volume to extreme levels then the 2A3 amp isn't for you but what should have been the worst at dynamics (especially for this size space) was audibly the equal of the much higher power amps(yes even on drums and vocals) which simply confirms to me that the Khorns can sound very dynamic with very little power. The 2A3 excels at clarity ,detail and naturalness(especially vocals).

The Marantz 8B: Very natural sounding amp and one I could happily live with. The sound stage isn't as wide as some of the other amps but everything sounds very balanced and vocals are very good.

The McIntosh MC30s: With the best combination of tubes I feel like it was slightly better than the Marantz 8B but with the wrong tube compliment I would have chosen the Marantz 8B. Tube changes had the most effect in the bass and vocal ranges and when things are at there best this amp is up there with the best.

H.H. Scott 222c: This integrated amp sounded as good to me as the McIntosh MC30s and is a great match for Khorns.

McIntosh MC2000: This has to be One of the most beautiful amps ever made!

The sound was very detailed and vocals where excellent and equaled the 2A3 amp in this regard. Of course with this much power ultimate SPL could easily get you in trouble with the neighbors(this could also be said of the SPL's from the Scott, Marantz 8B and MC30s as well) but it definitly holds together and just gets louder as the power goes up.

To sum up my points with all this is that Dynamics was excellent with all these amps and ultimate power available wasn't as important as other qualities of these amps for musical reproduction. Price also wasn't a good gauge of ultimate musical enjoyment either because the H.H.Scott 222c worth approx a few hundred wasn't blown away by the almost $16000 new retail for the MC2000. The sound was so close between the MC2000, MC30s, AES SE1 2A3, and H.H. Scott that I personelly would be happy with any of them.

I believe a good amp is important and we will have preferences for the small(relative to room differences) differences between them in our systems but room conditions can easily color and mask alot of the differences in our electronics.

meagain I like to always hear peoples opinions and personnely I try to have an open mind and their is no subsitute for trying things yourself in many situations to get a grasp of what will work for your situation and personnel preferences. Try to enjoy this hobby and my best advise is when you are trying different things try at some point to relax and enjoy the music without analyzing what your system is doing right or wrong. The true test is when you forget about the equipment and just become touched by the music then you've got something!

mike[]

Edit: Better write a quick disclaimer here. Man it takes me a while to write a post sometimes and just to make it clear when I started this post. So during this post I wasn't aware of the other post from others. I really don't want to get into a 5 Watt versus 500 Watt debate. I obviousely can like both low power and higher power amps and I do like to let people who have never experienced a good 2A3 amp with Khorns hear that combination because it is a very good example that power output is only one aspect to be considered when choosing an amplifier for our music.

[Duke Spinner]

The worst sounding "hi fi" I have ever heard consisted of a pair of Altec A7 VOT speakers being driven by a 400 watt Phase Linear amp and matching preamp being fed by a direct drive Denon turntable with

a Shure cartridge. I still have nightmares about how this system sounded and it was about 20 years ago when I was subjected to it. The owner was playing mostly sound effects records, but he did pull out the Harry James direct to disc LP and some Classical direct to disc stuff too and it ALL made my ears bleed . . .

now now, Allan ......

perhaps it was the Source material

I am certain it wasn't the VOTT, or the PL 400....RIGHT .......?????

[Jeff Matthews]

No need. I don't push 400. But I definitely push a heck of alot more than 60.

Bottom line is both of the owners of the used Corns and KHorns that I bought had them driven by lower powered amps - 60 watts and in that range. The difference is night and day, and I showed that to the owner of the KHorns. He said he never heard KHorns sound that good. Now, that's 2 out of 2 as for people I bought my Klipsch from, who had no idea.

The only others I personally knew with Klipsch Heritage are my brother (who intro'd me to Klipsch) and me, of course. We both know what Klipsch will do - and we both have the amps to make them perform like they were designed - not "jazz brunch."

So, that's 2 out of 4 Klipsch Heritage owners I knew who did not know what their Klipsch would do. I maintain there are many on this forum who have Klipsch Heritage and who have no idea what these speakers can do. How do you explain to someone who has no idea?

If you are thrilled by less than 150 wpc, then, ignorance is bliss. If you've never heard a 300 wpc amp drive your Heritage, that would explain why you are thrilled. If you have and say it's not as good, either you prefer "brunch" to concerts, or you never drove the more powerful amp hard enough. The Klipsch can take alot more power than people think - and they can make it sound really dynamic and smooth. Of course, I have seen some amps (but only car amps) rated at a gillion watts that sounded like crap, so that's a possibility, too!

But there is no substitute for clean, high power. The sales geeks at Home Entertainment (now Tweeter) and other hi-fi shops themselves had no idea. They'd play those $4,000 McIntosh amps at jazz brunch levels and say "Now, THAT was impressive wasn't it?" Poor guys just had no idea - and that's the way it is. Too few know. If only I could show them the concert quality you can get, they'd have a whole new perspective.

[Allan Songer]

If you are thrilled by less than 150 wpc, then, ignorance is bliss. If you've never heard a 300 wpc amp drive your Heritage, that would explain why you are thrilled. If you have and say it's not as good, either you prefer "brunch" to concerts, or you never drove the more powerful amp hard enough. The Klipsch can take alot more power than people think - and they can make it sound really dynamic and smooth. Of course, I have seen some amps (but only car amps) rated at a gillion watts that sounded like crap, so that's a possibility, too!

But there is no substitute for clean, high power. The sales geeks at Home Entertainment (now Tweeter) and other hi-fi shops themselves had no idea. They'd play those $4,000 McIntosh amps at jazz brunch levels and say "Now, THAT was impressive wasn't it?" Poor guys just had no idea - and that's the way it is. Too few know. If only I could show them the concert quality you can get, they'd have a whole new perspective.

Nonsense

[Jeff Matthews]

See! Allan has no idea.

[Duke Spinner]

uh oh......

I'm a 'tweener

with K-2 on the bottom end

'n 6L6 amp on the top.....

I Get Both ....[]

[Allan Songer]

See! Allan has no idea.

Nonsense

[Jeff Matthews]

Okay, Duke, a straight answer please (for once []). If you could drive your Khorns only with the K-2 or the tubes (but not both - i.e. you could only pick one), what would you choose and why?