"I need to liquify my solid state" sez Dean

[ben.]

Some lawyers' behavior and personalities can appear risky , rude, inappropriate, offensive, and dangerously aggressive to non-lawyers because of this difference in knowing just what the limits are of the law (as it pertains to social interactions, business transactions, interpersonal relationships, etc.).

How funny! Jeff, I hope you are appreciating the patience this forum's more experienced members have shown you. You obviously show some skill in both asserting that you are correct while asking for education and occasionally admitting your ignorance. A reckless disregard for empirical data betrays your profession too, doesn't it?

[Tom Mobley]

Ow, that'll leave a mark. but, as an admitted lawyer,

he's probably used to it. Recall the nature of popular lawyer

jokes, then imagine the ones they tell each other.

[mobile homeless]

It's turning into an amazing statistic.... so much of what I read in this place appears to be off, one way or another, and with a stygian certitude with ignorance held high with pride, albeit unknowingly. Whether it's backed by a ream of misused technical info or an amazing combination of little experience mated with even less ability to hone in on the variables, nothing can surprise anymore within the Klipsch 2 Channel forum. The latest list of prolific newbies will undoubtedly join the old timer 2 Channel diehards, now full blown members of the Klipsch Contradiction Brigade, all who managed to eat crow as if served from a Texas-sized, all-you-can-eat trough.

Dont worry though. The great thing about Klipsch 2 Channel is that time erases all and you can issue the most misguided statement one moment, turning around to say the opposite a while latter, all usually without much worry, since little is read with care and even less remembered. Some here made an art (or science) of it and are no worse off; indeed, I would say they built on it. With an archive that is used as infrequently as High School book stacks, you can remain relatively trouble-free, no matter how many ill-fated assessments are made. Later, you can act like it never existed, moving on the mobius strip of post ad-hoc, post ham hock.

Indeed, it's the Klipsch 2 Channel Right of Passage.

kh

[maxg]

It's turning into an amazing statistic.... so much of what I read in this place appears to be off, one way or another, and with a stygian certitude with ignorance held high with pride, albeit unknowingly. Whether it's backed by a ream of misused technical info or an amazing combination of little experience mated with even less ability to hone in on the variables, nothing can surprise anymore within the Klipsch 2 Channel forum. The latest list of prolific newbies will undoubtedly join the old timer 2 Channel diehards, now full blown members of the Klipsch Contradiction Brigade, all who managed to eat crow as if served from a Texas-sized, all-you-can-eat trough.

Dont worry though. The great thing about Klipsch 2 Channel is that time erases all and you can issue the most misguided statement one moment, turning around to say the opposite a while latter, all usually without much worry, since little is read with care and even less remembered. Some here made an art (or science) of it and are no worse off; indeed, I would say they built on it. With an archive that is used as infrequently as High School book stacks, you can remain relatively trouble-free, no matter how many ill-fated assessments are made. Later, you can act like it never existed, moving on the mobius strip of post ad-hoc, post ham hock.

Indeed, it's the Klipsch 2 Channel Right of Passage.

kh

You always said you liked my tagline. Saves any embarassment on my part.

[Jeff Matthews]

Hey, folks! Hold on there. I can handle all the kidding around, but let's be sure you know where I'm at. My supposition on the headroom issue as it relates to "slam" (if that's what you want to call it) still persists. I've unveiled my ignorance enough to candidly tell you I was surprised on my end to have been listening to only 30 of my amp's 310 watts. Though I have asked time and again, nobody here has stated that the peaks creating the slam effect were not significantly higher than 30 watts.

Yes, my profession thrives on either (A) well-thought-out , well-explained, undeniable science, or ( if A is lacking, some tight, logical-sounding BS. []

Trust me, I'm a trial attorney. []

PS, I don't know that Craig LeMay's 90-watt VRD's will be the "test" on this headroom thing. But, I'll be hooking up with him Friday and get to hear for myself what you've been saying about tubes. I'm bringing my amp, pre-amp and CD, too for some one-component-at-a-time swapping comparisons.

[maxg]

"Yes, my profession thrives on either (A) well-thought-out , well-explained, undeniable science, or ( if A is lacking, some tight, logical-sounding BS. "

Somewhere in one of these interminably long threads I wrote you a rather long dissertation (probably more logical sounding BS than undeniable science) on what might allow you to have that slam you refer to with lower WPC ratings.

In simple terms - if you are below the rated output of the amps (which we are all fairly certain you are - even for the biggest peaks) then it is the size of the power-supply and the supporting capacitance that will fulfil your needs or not. For simplicity lets just refer to that combo as the PSU (power supply unit).

You will observe Slam more often with larger output amps than with lesser ones simply because higher ouputs demand a bigger PSU, but as has been said time and again on these forums - not all amps rated the same are actually created equal.

The easy answer - therefore - is to simply get a bigger amp (your route). The point others on here are trying to make is that that decision is not without cost - which in this case - is in terms of the quality of sonic output at lower listening levels.

Cost no object larger amps MIGHT be able to achieve both - but t'aint common. Your Crown might be an exceptional sleeper in this - I have never heard it. Those that have, however, seem to have differing opinions.

[Jeff Matthews]

Now, Jeff, I'm starting to understand HOW you are able to play so loud. If I did that the neighbors would be at my door with torches and pitchforks inside three minutes. Lawyers get away with more because they know the law and most others do not.

Imagine standing in fog near a cliff. You know the cliff is somewhere near, but you don't know exactly where the edge starts. So what do you do? You stay away from it. A lawyer is like someone who can see through the fog and knows exaclty where the edge of the cliff is all the time. That means a lawyer can go right over and stand right by the edge without falling.

Some lawyers' behavior and personalities can appear risky , rude, inappropriate, offensive, and dangerously aggressive to non-lawyers because of this difference in knowing just what the limits are of the law (as it pertains to social interactions, business transactions, interpersonal relationships, etc.).

Jeff, if you will post your mailing address I will send you my SPL meter post haste. Then someday soon we can plan for me to come by and meet you. Like, what do I need with a SPL meter for my SETs? As far as I can compute my LaScalas have yet to see a one watt peak.

Pauln

Paul, it's funny you say that, because it reminds me of an "incident" one certain afternoon at about 3:00 pm in Austin while I was in my 3rd year in law school.

Playing drums to stereo. Neighbor comes over and beats on door - probably for a few minutes because I heard the beating between songs. Answer door, fully expecting to be a nice guy and agree to give it a rest for the day. Neighbor screams in my face and says gonna call cops. I get ticked for the rudeness, tell her to call the cops and shut the door.

Less than 10 minutes later, I got 3 cop cars out front. I greet the cops nicely. They tell me why they are there - like I didn't already know. They were nice, and I was nice. I'm still ticked at the neighbor. I tell cops they are welcome to go tell neighbor there's not a damn thing she can do about, nor anything the cops can do. Cop tells her that and says sorry he can't do anything.

I feel a little bad now that I won because if she was nice in the first place, I'd have chilled for the day. I tell cop to tell nieghbor to take comfort in that school's over in 3 weeks and I'm moving. That was the end of that, although I still enjoyed my drums during the interim.

Yep, the rules of the game are mighty important. Funny how music gets that reaction and table saws don't.

[Jeff Matthews]

"Yes, my profession thrives on either (A) well-thought-out , well-explained, undeniable science, or ( if A is lacking, some tight, logical-sounding BS. "

Somewhere in one of these interminably long threads I wrote you a rather long dissertation (probably more logical sounding BS than undeniable science) on what might allow you to have that slam you refer to with lower WPC ratings.

In simple terms - if you are below the rated output of the amps (which we are all fairly certain you are - even for the biggest peaks) then it is the size of the power-supply and the supporting capacitance that will fulfil your needs or not. For simplicity lets just refer to that combo as the PSU (power supply unit).

You will observe Slam more often with larger output amps than with lesser ones simply because higher ouputs demand a bigger PSU, but as has been said time and again on these forums - not all amps rated the same are actually created equal.

The easy answer - therefore - is to simply get a bigger amp (your route). The point others on here are trying to make is that that decision is not without cost - which in this case - is in terms of the quality of sonic output at lower listening levels.

Cost no object larger amps MIGHT be able to achieve both - but t'aint common. Your Crown might be an exceptional sleeper in this - I have never heard it. Those that have, however, seem to have differing opinions.

I totally missed that point previously, Max. Sounds like the start of a theory to me. Anyone else think Max's theory is valid?

[Duke Spinner]

I don't know that Craig LeMay's 90-watt VRD's will be the "test" on this headroom thing.

you may find 90 "tube" watts .......well, ....interesting .....[]

with highly efficient speakers, anyways

bring your hearing protection ....

[Deang]

It's turning into an amazing statistic.... so much of what I read in this place appears to be off, one way or another, and with a stygian certitude with ignorance held high with pride, albeit unknowingly. Whether it's backed by a ream of misused technical info or an amazing combination of little experience mated with even less ability to hone in on the variables, nothing can surprise anymore within the Klipsch 2 Channel forum. The latest list of prolific newbies will undoubtedly join the old timer 2 Channel diehards, now full blown members of the Klipsch Contradiction Brigade, all who managed to eat crow as if served from a Texas-sized, all-you-can-eat trough.

Dont worry though. The great thing about Klipsch 2 Channel is that time erases all and you can issue the most misguided statement one moment, turning around to say the opposite a while latter, all usually without much worry, since little is read with care and even less remembered. Some here made an art (or science) of it and are no worse off; indeed, I would say they built on it. With an archive that is used as infrequently as High School book stacks, you can remain relatively trouble-free, no matter how many ill-fated assessments are made. Later, you can act like it never existed, moving on the mobius strip of post ad-hoc, post ham hock.

Indeed, it's the Klipsch 2 Channel Right of Passage.

kh

I think I'll just plead the 5th.

[Jeff Matthews]

It's turning into an amazing statistic.... so much of what I read in this place appears to be off, one way or another, and with a stygian certitude with ignorance held high with pride, albeit unknowingly. Whether it's backed by a ream of misused technical info or an amazing combination of little experience mated with even less ability to hone in on the variables, nothing can surprise anymore within the Klipsch 2 Channel forum. The latest list of prolific newbies will undoubtedly join the old timer 2 Channel diehards, now full blown members of the Klipsch Contradiction Brigade, all who managed to eat crow as if served from a Texas-sized, all-you-can-eat trough.

Dont worry though. The great thing about Klipsch 2 Channel is that time erases all and you can issue the most misguided statement one moment, turning around to say the opposite a while latter, all usually without much worry, since little is read with care and even less remembered. Some here made an art (or science) of it and are no worse off; indeed, I would say they built on it. With an archive that is used as infrequently as High School book stacks, you can remain relatively trouble-free, no matter how many ill-fated assessments are made. Later, you can act like it never existed, moving on the mobius strip of post ad-hoc, post ham hock.

Indeed, it's the Klipsch 2 Channel Right of Passage.

kh

I think I'll just plead the 5th.

Mobile, that was very well-put, very well-thought-out and an impressive display of self-restraint to give deference where it might be deserved. You'd make a great attorney or other public leader.

And I'm serious about that. It's not as condescending as one might think at first glance. Read it a couple of times, and you'll see it has all the qualities I mentioned.

[pauln]

Now, Jeff, I'm starting to understand HOW you are able to play so loud. If I did that the neighbors would be at my door with torches and pitchforks inside three minutes. Lawyers get away with more because they know the law and most others do not.

Imagine standing in fog near a cliff. You know the cliff is somewhere near, but you don't know exactly where the edge starts. So what do you do? You stay away from it. A lawyer is like someone who can see through the fog and knows exaclty where the edge of the cliff is all the time. That means a lawyer can go right over and stand right by the edge without falling.

Some lawyers' behavior and personalities can appear risky , rude, inappropriate, offensive, and dangerously aggressive to non-lawyers because of this difference in knowing just what the limits are of the law (as it pertains to social interactions, business transactions, interpersonal relationships, etc.).

Jeff, if you will post your mailing address I will send you my SPL meter post haste. Then someday soon we can plan for me to come by and meet you. Like, what do I need with a SPL meter for my SETs? As far as I can compute my LaScalas have yet to see a one watt peak.

Pauln

Paul, it's funny you say that, because it reminds me of an "incident" one certain afternoon at about 3:00 pm in Austin while I was in my 3rd year in law school.

Playing drums to stereo. Neighbor comes over and beats on door - probably for a few minutes because I heard the beating between songs. Answer door, fully expecting to be a nice guy and agree to give it a rest for the day. Neighbor screams in my face and says gonna call cops. I get ticked for the rudeness, tell her to call the cops and shut the door.

Less than 10 minutes later, I got 3 cop cars out front. I greet the cops nicely. They tell me why they are there - like I didn't already know. They were nice, and I was nice. I'm still ticked at the neighbor. I tell cops they are welcome to go tell neighbor there's not a damn thing she can do about, nor anything the cops can do. Cop tells her that and says sorry he can't do anything.

I feel a little bad now that I won because if she was nice in the first place, I'd have chilled for the day. I tell cop to tell nieghbor to take comfort in that school's over in 3 weeks and I'm moving. That was the end of that, although I still enjoyed my drums during the interim.

Yep, the rules of the game are mighty important. Funny how music gets that reaction and table saws don't.

================================== Holy Mother of Sound! =============================================

Jeff, you've been on the pointed end of a lot of threads here, but not until now does it become clear your most valuable contribution to us all as an information source:

Please tell us in detail (the right words to say and behaviors to emit) how to get away with playing music loud - especially what to do when the neighbors complain or call the police. This is gold! You are so correct that the music gets a call but the saw across the street does not. I'm starting to understand. This is great. I would love to have the confidence to instruct the police to tell the complainer they are out of luck. Seriously, give us the details, how is this done? Please answer soon - you have inspired me to play a little louder!

The offer to send you my SPL still stands.

Pauln

[IB Slammin]

I just noticed this one and will do the two cent thing.

I run my rig at 110db to 118db at times. I use two SS Lux M117's in BTL rated at over 700wpc 8ohm loads. They are a warmer (but not dark) tube sound than Crown. Man, I listened to Merlin for about 10 days and had to have it. The tube front really gives SS power amps a "best of both worlds' sound IMHO. The Merlin is very clean and transparent in mids and HF. BUT, it almost seems to ATTACK a bass note. Hard to explain other than very tight with authority.

I would think that Peach or Merlin would lend control, tame the Crowns.

Terry

[D-MAN]

A quality front-end makes for a quality back-end, providing the back-end is up to snuff.

I have found that tube front-ends are much more accepting of impedance mismatches and lesser quality cabling than comparable SS pre's.

DM

[Fish]

I just noticed this one and will do the two cent thing.

I

run my rig at 110db to 118db at times. I use two SS Lux M117's in BTL

rated at over 700wpc 8ohm loads. They are a warmer (but not

dark) tube sound than Crown. Man, I listened to Merlin for about

10 days and had to have it. The tube front really gives SS power amps a

"best of both worlds' sound IMHO. The Merlin is very clean and

transparent in mids and HF. BUT, it almost seems to ATTACK a bass note.

Hard to explain other than very tight with authority.

I would think that Peach or Merlin would lend control, tame the Crowns.

Terry

Wow, in keeping w/the title of the thread this seems like a good option.

[Duke Spinner]

Terry, I reviewed the Merlin for MD....

let's just say that it is very under priced ....!

head to head with my Quicksilver Pre, the expensive one,$2500, it gave away ... very little

[Jeff Matthews]

Now, Jeff, I'm starting to understand HOW you are able to play so loud. If I did that the neighbors would be at my door with torches and pitchforks inside three minutes. Lawyers get away with more because they know the law and most others do not.

Imagine standing in fog near a cliff. You know the cliff is somewhere near, but you don't know exactly where the edge starts. So what do you do? You stay away from it. A lawyer is like someone who can see through the fog and knows exaclty where the edge of the cliff is all the time. That means a lawyer can go right over and stand right by the edge without falling.

Some lawyers' behavior and personalities can appear risky , rude, inappropriate, offensive, and dangerously aggressive to non-lawyers because of this difference in knowing just what the limits are of the law (as it pertains to social interactions, business transactions, interpersonal relationships, etc.).

Jeff, if you will post your mailing address I will send you my SPL meter post haste. Then someday soon we can plan for me to come by and meet you. Like, what do I need with a SPL meter for my SETs? As far as I can compute my LaScalas have yet to see a one watt peak.

Pauln

Paul, it's funny you say that, because it reminds me of an "incident" one certain afternoon at about 3:00 pm in Austin while I was in my 3rd year in law school.

Playing drums to stereo. Neighbor comes over and beats on door - probably for a few minutes because I heard the beating between songs. Answer door, fully expecting to be a nice guy and agree to give it a rest for the day. Neighbor screams in my face and says gonna call cops. I get ticked for the rudeness, tell her to call the cops and shut the door.

Less than 10 minutes later, I got 3 cop cars out front. I greet the cops nicely. They tell me why they are there - like I didn't already know. They were nice, and I was nice. I'm still ticked at the neighbor. I tell cops they are welcome to go tell neighbor there's not a damn thing she can do about, nor anything the cops can do. Cop tells her that and says sorry he can't do anything.

I feel a little bad now that I won because if she was nice in the first place, I'd have chilled for the day. I tell cop to tell nieghbor to take comfort in that school's over in 3 weeks and I'm moving. That was the end of that, although I still enjoyed my drums during the interim.

Yep, the rules of the game are mighty important. Funny how music gets that reaction and table saws don't.

================================== Holy Mother of Sound! =============================================

Jeff, you've been on the pointed end of a lot of threads here, but not until now does it become clear your most valuable contribution to us all as an information source:

Please tell us in detail (the right words to say and behaviors to emit) how to get away with playing music loud - especially what to do when the neighbors complain or call the police. This is gold! You are so correct that the music gets a call but the saw across the street does not. I'm starting to understand. This is great. I would love to have the confidence to instruct the police to tell the complainer they are out of luck. Seriously, give us the details, how is this done? Please answer soon - you have inspired me to play a little louder!

The offer to send you my SPL still stands.

Pauln

I'm always happy to share a little info. if anyone wants it. Basically, the noise ordinances are under city laws. There is no noise law at a county or state level. Generally, and I'll say that sparingly, the noise ordinance applies to loud noise after say, 10:00 pm. What's that mean? Make all the noise you want before 10:00 pm; then, shut it down.

On handling the police when they come - and they will, since there's always potential for escalation, fighting and killing - if nobody's outrageous, and you are civil, there should be no reason for them not to follow the law. Piss a cop off, and that's another story. So, I would not get cocky and hang it over them.

This applies as a general frame of reference. For example, many apartment leases probably have clauses that allow them to evict you for playing music too loud at any time. Once it is part of your contract, you agreed to it, and that's what it has to be.

Also, some deed restrictions generally allude to not creating nuisances in the neighborhood (and then use as examples garbage, stinky stuff, and loud things). An association or neighbor could try to enforce restrictions against you. That would usually come at great expense since they have to file a lawsuit, so it is less likely they will do it.

I'd say the bottom-line best way to do it is go ahead and jam when you want, but hopefully you don't jam so excessively and with such frequency as to get someone too pissed to actually do more than call the cops. I didn't say I could keep them from firing a shotgun through your window. []

Outside of that, I'd say know the ordinance. I think it's 10:00 pm, but won't say for sure. I knew durn well it wasn't 3:00 pm.

I'll get with you on that SPL meter. Thanks.

[stormin]

Doesn't the PLX series have an input impedance of 6kohms unbalanced? Isn't that going to be pretty tough finding a nice tube preamp with such a low output impedance. Or does the the peach fit the bill nicely without a huge impedance mismatch? How would lets say the merlin work out? ============== The Peach in LoZ output mode will drive 6kO just fine. The Merlin would not do as well, and is more suited to loads above 20kO. md

Thanks Mark for the clarification of which preamp would be more suited for an amplifier with such a low input impedance. You wouldn't happen to have any trade-ins lying around would you?[]

[stormin]

not a prob bro.

[H]

[Tom Mobley]

>> "You'd make a great attorney or other public leader."

assumes facts not in evidence? slick though.

mh has traditionally wielded a pretty sharp keyboard though.