Couple of basic LaScala Questions

[Deang]

Though I don't think the time alignment issue is the red herring I used to think it is, I'm sure not ready to subscribe to the idea that it's responsible for every acoustic anomaly associated with these speakers. If it has an effect, it's not to the degree that JC is talking about, which is rooted in the distibution of energy between the drivers.


One thing I am beginning to realize is that the "great bass sound" from it is lost when you try to cross it lower.

Remember when you started on these I threw up a flag on that, Which is why I twisted your arm into using the Cornwall ALK. We know what the sensitivity of the bass section is crossed at 600Hz, but we don't know what it is crossed at 400Hz. I also thought the higher crossover point might help out the K-401 a bit. Recently you tried 500Hz, but it was second order -- which also reduces the total energy delivered to the K-33's. As you're finding out, small changes make monumental differences in the acoustic output. Now, one thing you really need to do is allow more time between changes! It takes me a few days to really nail things down. Be careful, the propensity is to notice something missing, and then forget to listen for what you got in it's place. Low end response may not have been as intense, but it should have been smoother and cleaner. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but some of that bass you like so well is old fashioned THD.

[meagain]

LOL Jeff! It's a painted brick wall with a fireplace in it. Actually 2 fireplaces. The trusses span the good 13' wide room and the other 13' wide room (sunken) has basically cardboard for a ceiling. The entire area would collapse. The fireplace wall is really an exterior wall. So yea, it's load bearing. How could it not be? And, what to do about the 2 flues, etc? Course, once the wall is gone, I'll have a 2 step cliff into the sunken room and while it would be nice and open, I'd still be locked into sitting in the raised room as a sofa can't exactly straddle the 2 levels, etc. Plus the whole sunken room including ceiling/roof needs to be torn down. Trust me - big mess that has to be done all at once. I'm figureing 50 grand.

[meagain]

Dumb question... One couldn't merely cut a larger hole & put the k55 right into an existing Cornwall and extend the sides of the cabinet? Not enough room for the horn height-wise I assume?

[Deang]

The horn is too long -- it would stick out the back.

You will want to do false corners -- eventually.

[meagain]

Yes - False corners. eww though.

I guess to extend the sides/top of the cornwall to allow the k55 would be akin to building a new cab. Well - why doesn't someone just take a LaScala, rip out that wooden 'V', create a ply or mdf front panel for the woofer like the corn? I would think that might be an easier route?

Also, doesn't the Belle have the K55? Yet it's only 18.75" deep. The driver must be nearly butt up against the back? Is that to say the LaScala's 25.5"? depth is for the bass area & not to cover the horn?

[Jeff Matthews]

$50K? Please make your check payable to me in certified funds. I'll be there next week.

No way $50k.

As to the load-bearing issue, think back to my photos. We had to put a beam in because the wall was perpendicular to the joists. The joists must rest on something that is pependicular. If you have a wall that is parallel to the joists, you can just rip it down. A parallel wall does not support the joists.

The way the porch is tied in with a shed roof tells me right away it is likely on a gable - meaning the rafters that hold the roof decking are also parallel to the joists. Therefore, the rafters are supported by only the exterior walls that run perpendicular to them. Just because it's an exterior wall does not make it load-bearing. It's just they had to stop the house and close it in somewhere.

On the fireplace, once the flue and chimney is removed, you have a little framing in the attic to complete the rafters so you can fill in the hole left behind and then deck with new plywood. No big deal either. Plus, you'd need a batch of shingles to match and some roofing felt.

The big issue is the 2 steps down. That would run you a fair amount of concrete. If the porch is not already on slab, you take all the decking out, dig a 1-foot wide perimeter trench to pour a 1-foot deep concrete beam. Form up the trench high enough to meet your existing slab. Fill with sand up to 4 inches less than level with the slab. Put plastic vapor barrier, set rebar, and pour in concrete. Fun, fun, fun!!!

You could rebuild all of the exterior walls to the porch, too, if you think they're that bad. Wood is cheap. Then some insulation, siding of choice and drywall. Okay. Okay. This is too much. Your point is well-taken. This kind of stuff is what I am presently doing, though, on our old fixer-upper. It's quite fun, and I've gotten way more done while still remaining within original budget when we bought. I mean WAY more.

I guess my point is, what you're saying you need to do would probably cost you $5k in materials. Where's the other $45k going?

BTW: Don't ask me to do it for $5k to challenge me. [] I'll tell you how it's done for $5k, though.

[meagain]

45k to essentially remove the entire rear of the house (both rooms on each side of fireplace wall) and rebuild from scratch properly, windows, ceilings, roof, might as well raise the ceilings big time, etc. etc. 28x16 = 44,800' x $100/ft. And it'll really abe 28x18' About $50 not counting new fireplace.

I'm assuming saving the 2 skimpily done walls in the good room would actually cost more than new. Of course I will strive to whittle it down. That's my forte.

But really - exterior walls not load-bearing? Um OK.

(sorry guys for the ot)

[LarryC]

Also, doesn't the Belle have the K55? Yet it's only 18.75" deep. The driver must be nearly butt up against the back? Is that to say the LaScala's 25.5"? depth is for the bass area & not to cover the horn?

The Belle had the shorter K-500 horn.

[Deang]

"...why doesn't someone just take a LaScala, rip out that wooden 'V', create a ply or mdf front panel for the woofer like the corn? I would think that might be an easier route?"

That's basically what a Cornscala is.

My opinion is that you move forwards, not backwards -- there's no substitute for horn loading a driver. Higher sensitivity and lower distortion is the way to go, and that means LaScalas.

When you hear what good false corners do for the Klispchorn in a small room, you go from eww to ahhh.

[Frzninvt]

DJK or Marvel posted a method to increase the bass response of the La Scala that is totally reversible and leaves the original cabinetry intact.

Basically you remove the bottom hatch (woofer access) and build an add on piece that has two ports, and you will get more low end extension. I have the 3D rendering at home I am not going to even attempt to find it using the "Search" function.

It can be done though.

[Mike Lindsey]

Doesn't appear as though the La Scala is held in much esteem for those individuals that do most of the posting around here. The Forum has changed a lot since the last time I hung out here.

You all have talked Meagain into modifying them already, and she's never even heard them. I'm not saying they can't sound better. Hell, I myself have ALK's (a must) and some 511B's that I hook up occasionally, and would probably run 'em full time that way if they were enclosed in the cabinet.

I'm a firm believer in listening to them first, and then if you don't like what you're hearing you can do something about it. These are your ears we're talking about. As you can already see, there are numerous people on this Forum who like them just the way they are.

A little perspective from a pro-La Scala listener.

Mike

[Jeff Matthews]

45k to essentially remove the entire rear of the house (both rooms on each side of fireplace wall) and rebuild from scratch properly, windows, ceilings, roof, might as well raise the ceilings big time, etc. etc. 28x16 = 44,800' x $100/ft. And it'll really abe 28x18' About $50 not counting new fireplace.

I'm assuming saving the 2 skimpily done walls in the good room would actually cost more than new. Of course I will strive to whittle it down. That's my forte.

But really - exterior walls not load-bearing? Um OK.

(sorry guys for the ot)

Not load-bearing. That's a fact. Build a little box out of cards (4 walls and a ceiling). Tape them together. Now, remove one of the walls running parallel to the ceiling. It still stands! Hmmmmm. Whaddayaknow?

Also, the prices you're talking are vastly inflated - unless you want to pay someone top dollar to do it. Take, for example, raising the slab on the 13x16 porch to even it out across both rooms. Let's say you're raising it about 2-feet. 13x16=208 square feet. Let's round to 210.

210 divided by 3 (because slabs are 4" thick) equals 70 cubic feet. 70 divided by 27 (to convert to cubic yards) is well less than 3. So, round the "well less than 3" up to 5 to account for the perimeter concrete beam of the new slab, and you have 5 yards. Concrete is what? $70 a yard? That's $350 in concrete. Add another $350 for form boards, rebar and sand. You need a vapor barrier if there is not already one there, so add another $150 (which has to be on the high side). You have $850 into the new slab.

I bet you thought that slab would be in the ballpark of $5-7k.

Then, when you frame a wall, it is all out of 2x4's. The rule of thumb is 2x4's on 16" centers will call for one 2x4 per linear foot when you add the top and bottom plates. Your perimeter is 16+13+13=42. Round up to 50 for grins. 50 2x4's at what? $2.50 ea.? There's $125 in lumber for all your walls.

You could easily use 2x8's in the ceiling as joists. You'd need about 15 of them to put them on 16" centers. They're probably $15 ea for 14-footers (that's a guess). So there's $225 for ceiling joists.

Rafters can be 2x6's. Figure $150 tops.

1/2" ply for roof decking. Figure not more than $200. Roofing felt and shingles should not be more than $300. Windows are between $150 and $250 ea. $250 buys high quality 7' x 3' windows. What? 3 of those? Insulation. Less than $200. Drywall. Less than $100. Electrical wire. Less than $50. Hardi-plank siding is not more than $500.

There you are, all built-up, dried-in and sheetrocked. It's ready for trim boards, paint, carpet or other flooring.

Adding all the tab so far gives..... $3450. How much on flooring, paint and baseboard? $45k? []

Oh, you want to do BOTH rooms? Double it. $7,000. I doubt you'd need to redo the slab in the good part of the room, so you can deduct for that. Higher ceilings just means longer 2x4's. Add 30% to the cost of 2x4's for a 10' ceiling. With the slab savings, you've more than covered the high ceiling.

[jwc]

Here is the Cornscala Build thread which includes the complete steps w/o much experience with woodworking required. The damn search engine is crappy. I will bump the thread.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/542050/ShowPost.aspx

Dean. I agree. I probably don't listen long enough sometimes. However, the recent testing I did on my dbb's lasted weeks. My comments on the networks for my Cornscalas is with listening over about a 5 hour period. Definately not in stone with those comments and my initial comments.

However, I am standing prettty firm with the K33Eand how it is crossed over.....time delay or not. Yes, the ALK B works well in the Cornscala for that reason.

I also agree that a horn loaded driver is the way to go in principle. It is just the La scala isn't for me. I think I desire a "little" cheap low bass" in there.

jc

[DrWho]

My problem with hornloaded bass is that they weren't using horn loaded

bass in the studio...let's just assume they were using a 15" woofer

during the mastering (though it's usually more around 10,12 inches).

There are inherant distortions to every same type of speaker - simply

due to the fact that they all have to move the same amount to achieve

the same SPL (slight variations with changes in tuning point and blah

blah blah). Anyways, these distortions naturally become a part of the

recording - the sound laid down on the record has been tweaked into the

opposite direction. Now when we come home and play it back on our horn

loaded woofers, we no longer have the same magnitude of distortion and

essentially we don't uncompensate that which was compensated for on the

recording. So yes there is less "distortion", but the problem is that a

lot of that distortion (especially the bass) is an integral part to the

music.

The same thing happens with hornloaded midrange too - and is the reason

some recordings seem harsh, or nonhorn fans would describe it as

colored by the horn. This is certainly not always the case and I

suppose with the right kind of distortion with an amplifier (or

turntable) you can end up gaining back a lot of that original good

distortion that is built into the music...or you can just listen at

much louder levels. The reason so many people like minimalist

recordings is because there isn't much tweaking around the speakers

going on - so it results in a mix that translates much better to other

kinds of systems.

The other option is to find recordings that were mastered on hornloaded

speakers (or even better the exact speakers you're listening to). I had

an opportunity to listen to some LPs at artto's place that were

mastered in a studio using khorns. That was by far the best sounding

recording I have ever heard in my life (and probably because all the

"flaws" of the khorn were accounted for with the recording).

How's that for a justification for distortion? [H]

[Jeff Matthews]

I agree with Who. There's no doubt distortion is a good quality at the right levels.

[Deang]

I think both of you need to lay off the crack for a while!

[Jeff Matthews]

Even instruments cause distortion. What would you think of rock if all it ever had was acoustical guitar? There must be distortion for variety.

[Mike Lindsey]

What would you think of rock if all it ever had was acoustical guitar?

It would be better than the crap that is being played today...

Mike

[Deang]

There's "distortion" from the instruments, and then there's induced distortion from the playback system -- most of which is from the drivers. Who's argument is like saying 1+1=0. Whatever distortion is added by the playback system simply wasn't there to begin with. The less that is added the closer you are to what's really there.

[meagain]

$7000 for essentially a house that's 28' x 18'? Jeff, you are brilliant! Who knew? I'm going to run to Home Depot right now!

I'm going to listen to them tomorrow and will likely get them if they're pretty.