Peach competition

[meagain]

Coytee - On page 3 or so you mentioned Mike paying a visit (or vice versa?). Not sure which Mike you're referring to but it might be interesting if you could hook up with him again and perhaps do a blind a/b on him. See what his impressions are. But it must be a 100% blind test.

[maxg]

Another thought on this - "is the bypass mode transparent issue"

If anyone has a Cd player with a volume control and a Peach they could compare playing the CD direct into their amps Vs playing through the Peach bypass circuit and report back.

Be interesting to hear that there is no difference, an improvement or a degradation....

[Strabo]

Maybe we need a thread where people could list their test CD's and what they listen for.

For instance, Steve Hoffman often states that one of his test cd's is the Analog Production or DCC version of CCR's Cosmo's Factory. Specifically the snare in the opening to Fortunate Son. It should sound drenched with reverb/echo. I couldn't hear it on my Forte's with any of the few amps that I tried or PIO caps so I went to dealers with that disc in hand and listened to high $$$ speakers until I heard it.

Another disc I use for male vocals is Robin And The Seven Hoods soundtrack. Sounds corny but try it sometime. You have Sinatra, Dean Martin, and Bing Crosby all singing together. Try to locate and pinpoint each voice while they sing together.

For classical, try Yo-Yo Ma Plays Ennio Morricone. Again this might sound corny, but listen to the Sergio Leone Suite. One of the tracks is either very closely mic'd or mixed with lots of weird phasing but it places you in Yo-Yo Ma's chair as he plays. The rest of the disc is mixed with you middle center of the audience but that one track puts his cello all around you.

[cjgeraci]

Another thought on this - "is the bypass mode transparent issue"

If anyone has a Cd player with a volume control and a Peach they could compare playing the CD direct into their amps Vs playing through the Peach bypass circuit and report back.

Be interesting to hear that there is no difference, an improvement or a degradation....

Max:

I performed this test last year using my Sony CDP (from the 80s), and using its volume control - going through the HT bypass - and into one of my amps. Even though Mark has consistently stated that the HT bypass is simply that - a bypass - I wanted to see just how the bypass affected the sound.

I noticed no difference between going through the bypass and going straight into my amps. The bypass was transparent.

Also, as I pointed out earlier, I have been recently running my Luxman pre (solid state) through the HT bypass (for vinyl). When I switched and ran the Luxman pre into one of the Peach's inputs, there was improvement and a change in sound. When I then bypassed the Luxman pre altogether (just using the phono stage from the Luxman), I noticed more differences.

I agree with Craig on some high quality CDPs sounding great - and high quality. My vinyl rig is pretty decent, but my CDP setup sounds excellent also. I run a modded Jolida player like Lisa - but with Mullard CV4004s inside. As for the outputs, I can tell you that I switched the dual outputs of the Jolida - no difference - and I use both outputs regularly (one to the Peach and another to my Classe pre) - without hearing a difference or change in the CDP's output.

Carl.

[maxg]

Thanks CJ,

I am now formally stumped!

No idea.

[Deang]

You guys wanna talk about caps now?

[meagain]

You guys wanna talk about caps now?

Hmmm....

[Coytee]

I think we may finally be getting somewhere. Most of the differences that I hear in equipment is in soundstaging more than tonality.

Well, at the risk of exposing myself as a nincompoop, I guess you finally figured out how to put into words what I've been blathering about.

I guess i'll put it this way...

My issue is with soundstaging more than tonality. I don't notice...indeed, I'm not sure I even CARE if a cymbol reverberates 45 times after it's struck or 38 times with the other 7 reveberations being 'smeared' or otherwise some form of jumble...

My goal would be to have more of a 3-d soundstage

To the degree differentiating the cymbols 45 verses 38 (plus smear) reveberations might effect a soundstage, I DO care.. so if those should be my first priority to iron out, I'm happy to push in that direction. Somehow, I think if they are 'good enough' then the soundstage will not be affected (just a guess)

Since I'm using a Peach, McIntosh, Al's ES networks, I figure I've GOT to be halfway there on the hardware front (trachorn & JBL's in line next).

Oh, and I DO sit in between the speakers, but I'm probably , well, darn, can't draw it out.

I'm in middle of room, both speakers firing BEHIND me since that darn table is in the way. Besides, this way I can be near the controls. I'm in front of the 'crossing' point that would fire out of the speakers, I guess you'd call it nearfield.

When I was at forum member Brad's house (BradRapzic or something like that), he put some drummer on and it was really cool how I could "see" the drummer right in front of me. Indeed, I could even "see" him hitting his cymbol that was in in front of me, to the right and elevated up a bit... it was really getting me excited about dragging these home from Chicago (Hi Meagain!!) down to Knoxville. He was using a 2A3 integrated (forget brand).

So, I got them home, tried a Wright 2A3, Jolida, OTL and have still, been unable to reproduce anything REMOTELY like that experience. Left speaker plays out of the left corner and the right speaker from the right corner. They've not tried once, to disappear.

So, presuming they can be (somewhat) mutually exclusive, I'm more about soundstage first and THEN this pinpoint accuracy than I am accuracy first & soundstage after.

If they're intertwined then perhaps I'm simply screwed until I can get my basement finished (and what more reasons would I now need to get off my duff working on it!!)

[]

[maxg]

Coytee,

Some options to gain soundstaging:

Talk to Erik about that third channel black box thing and add a Belle inbetween the Khorns.

Sit behind the table.

Sit on the table.

Sit under the table.

Put the table on wheels and drag the damn thing out of the way when you want to listen.

Normally when you sit nearfield you get the best soundstage of all - so it is odd that your Khorns are rigidly sticking to a left / right image.

The advantage of option 1 above, if feasable, is that it in effect forces the soundstage allowing much more freedom in seating position whilst still getting that disappearing speaker effect.

As you implied your corners are less than stellar you might also want to try toeing the horns in a bit. If you have the models that do it you could disconnect the tweeter/squarker section from the bass bins and just toe those in.

[Strabo]

You guys wanna talk about caps now?

It's baseball season! []

[sfogg]

Max,

"Some options to gain soundstaging:

1. Talk to Erik about that third channel black box thing and add a Belle inbetween the Khorns."

I was thinking the same thing. Or wait till he gets his room done and buy the Lex. he was considering and *really* do the front stage well.

"The advantage of option 1 above, if feasable, is that it in effect forces the soundstage allowing much more freedom in seating position whilst still getting that disappearing speaker effect."

Doing it the passive method (PWKs box) does open up the 'sweet spot.' When you do L/C/Rs with actual steering to the center it makes it even more solid and central imaging/soundstaging from outside the boundries of the speakers is relatively easy. That is one of the advantages from having what phantom images in the sweet spot as being front and center actually be reproduced at front and center.

Shawn

[mark1101]

I use one of those PWK mini boxes for a center channel, and it functions excellently. My LaScalas are 24 ft. apart and there was a big hole in the center, lack of stereo image, and all you could hear was 2 individual speakers. Absolutely aweful. The 3rd Lascala in the middle along with the mini box totally erased the problem. An excellent tool.

My issue is that the room is not deep enough to sit far enough back.

[NOSValves]

You guys wanna talk about caps now?

No actually I think we should discuss the best way to end it all...........

[Coytee]

Here is a pic of my room.

Just hung up with the wife & asked about moving what is (in the pic) the right speaker and putting it to the left of the camera, left side of the fireplace. This way as sitting on the couch, you COULD have an excellent triangulation of the speakers to your ears...

Her answer? "pffft"

lol

So it seems their position is frozen until basement is done. That's kind of a bummer too as I have been contemplating selling one of the McIntosh amps and now, if my "trial" has to continue onto the basement, it's (my ownership) going to last that much longer.

[garymd]

I've loaned my ears to Larry on a number of occasions as he's made changes to his system. We almost always listen to Beethovens "Choral Fantasy" on CD and I've become intimately familiar with this piece and have specific things I listen for when trying to determine whether or not I hear improvement.

In this particular version, you can hear papers shuffling in the background (one example). I listen specifically to those shuffling papers to see if I notice an improvement in clarity. Also, certain instruments/notes may sound more or less clear or lifelike. I try to focus on those particular instruments or notes.

On my system, I tend to play the same LPs over and over when testing. Many Beatles songs have clapping and I listen carefully to the clarity of the clapping. Dave Brubeck's Time Out LP has some very realistic sounding cymbols and I can usually tell if I hear improvement based on the first couple minutes of Blue Rondo A La Turk. Take Five has a bass solo that you can feel when certain notes are played. I listen to those notes in particular. A couple of my original Blue Note LPs are very bright sounding and bass shy and if I'm trying to determine improvement in bass, I'll play one or two of those. Ray Brown's Solar Energy LP has some chest rattling acoustic bass which is another I'll play. The Garcia/Grisman soundtrack to Grateful Dawg has a bass solo in one song that sounds VERY realistic, especially when ONE single note is plucked. I listen for that note. You can actually hear the instrument vibrate.

Basically, it depends on what I'm trying to accomplish with my system. If I'm tube swapping and trying to improve clarity, I can listen to any of the above to determine if this particular tube actually improved clarity across the board or just on the high-end, mids, or tightens up the bass. I may lose some bass in the process and I can usually determine that by playing one of my Blue Notes or one of the bass solos mentioned above.

I'm guessing I'm not alone here and many others do something similiar. Sometimes it's just a no-brainer and the improvement is obvious. We all love it when that's the case. Sometimes it's so subtle, you have no choice but to do what I described in an attempt to justify the expense of a particular upgrade, assuming you decide it actually IS an upgrade. I'm finally at the point where I'm pretty comfortable with my system and I don't really do this much anymore. I spend more time enjoying music and less time analyzing my system which I believe is the ultimate goal here.

BTW - My Khorns are only 13 ft apart (until I build my music room) and I sit about 8 feet back (leaving about 17 feet behind me). It takes the room out of the equation and the soundstage is amazing.

[dbflash]

Richard,

Nice room, but your problem is the room.

The speakers need room.

I don't think any amount of new gear is going to help.

The glass table is a problem. Chairs in front of the speaker is a problem.

I'm thinking you can't even sit back far enough to get the full monty.

I'm in the same boat until I redo my room. My system sounds good, but it will sound better.

I know this is hard, but I'd wait until the basement is done and then go hog wild.

This is tough. I almost bought a Lector or Ayre 7e CDP last week, but I keep thinking why until the room is done.

Good Luck.

This has been an interesting post so far.

Danny

[maxg]

Get thee to the basement pronto.

That room is a nightmare for the speakers - you have just about everything you could have to throw the sound into a cocked hat.

Do not spend one penny on further electronics until you get into the basement - nothing on this earth will create a soundstage in that setup.

[sfogg]

Flip the K'Horns and mount them from the ceiling.

Will give them more room to breathe....

Shawn

[meagain]

Coytee - when facing the fireplace.. what is in the left corner that is so terribly important that it can't be moved? Also what width of wall do you have them on now and what width would they be if on fireplace wall?

Surely if you tell her this is a temporary measure for say... 2 weeks, she'd be OK with that? Tell her you just need to test some stuff out. Are you planning on having any guests/parties in the next 2 weeks that she needs to have it 'just so' for? The one khorn is even blocking the window? I would think that would be irritating for her right there. Then you can maybe lose the sofa, skooch the coctail table more towards the FP and put those 2 cozy looking chairs in the sofa's place? The room appears pretty crowded. I bet you could get it sounding better AND perhaps make it even more visually appealing? If she won't give you 2 weeks, surely a weekend?

Gosh - you must really like her. LOL

[Parrot]

Coytee,

Do you have a corner to the left of the fireplace? If you moved a Khorn over there, would it be in a corner or have one of its sides open? I'd work on explaining to your wife that the whole room would look much better if the speakers were symmetrical with the fireplace.

If you sit in front of the glass table, you are much too far forward. The table doesn't look very heavy. Why not just slide it out of the way when you are listening? Just as a temporary measure, as it would be better to rearrange things wholesale or set up your stereo in the basement.