sfogg Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Dean, " I think you've finally lost your mind.:)" You have no idea........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 "Why not bump it up a bit, stretch the midrange driver out to 8 or 9kHz, and then let the tweeter add the sparkle. You'd amazed at how smooth the overall sound gets when you get a driver that can reach out." I'd agree with that. And depending upon the dispersion (and where you sit) the 511/902 might be fine to run all the way up. My 902s are more extended then the k77 I had for example. To really top off the Altec's something like the 2404s would be a nice combo. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 12, 2006 Author Share Posted May 12, 2006 Charles - contact Bill at www.greatplainsaudio.com He has all of the original Altec tooling, and if I were to do it I would go new. I believe they are $200 each. I think you should take advantage of the fact that you have a low end that goes up a bit. It's not like you have the same limitation imposed on a Klipschorn user, that has no choice but to crossover at 400 or 450. Why not bump it up a bit, stretch the midrange driver out to 8 or 9kHz, and then let the tweeter add the sparkle. You'd amazed at how smooth the overall sound gets when you get a driver that can reach out. Well it's not definate yet that I will get 902s... Ah heck, who am I kiddin?! [] But when I do get 902s, I'll buy new from Bill which means that will just push that upgrade further down the road for me. As it is right now, I really prefer the sound of the K-33 rolled off just over 400Hz. It did make an improvement in my system. So with that, I am wondering on how to rework the networks when the time comes. You said that you should keep the crossover points 3 octaves apart (??) with 1st order networks, right? So even if the K-33 was back at 600Hz, and the 902 would start at 600Hz and extend up to 8-9kHz, and then the CT125 from 8-9kHz to infinity "and beyond" - hehehe, then that throws the 3 octave theory out the window, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 12, 2006 Author Share Posted May 12, 2006 To really top off the Altec's something like the 2404s would be a nice combo. Shawn That brings up another question for me... Has anyone ever done a side-by-side comparison of the JBL 2404 and Bob's CT125? Not that I'm going to spend $550+ on a pair of JBL tweeters anytime soon, but I just want to know how the CT125s stack up to the praised 2404. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 12, 2006 Author Share Posted May 12, 2006 Oh, BTW Shawn... You are one sick dude! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Charles, I run the 902's from 400hz up and they work fine.I cant tell much difference from the K-77 in response with the benifit of a 2way Scala.I have the 902-T's(T=Theater).From what I understand the A's are rated for less power that the B and T versions which have loading caps to limit excursion and protect it. Shawn, Have you ever heard the Altec 203B's?I missed my chance for a mint pair on ebay that went for $25 ea.I would think with a 288G driver rated from 300 to16K in a 2way setup would be sweet. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Chops: Another thing to consider are other nice Altec drivers as well. The 902s are excellent drivers, but if you plan on using a tweeter, there are some other Altec options that sound good - and you might get lucky. For example, I recently had my Altec Valencias converted to three-ways (thanks again, Dean!!), and I now run 806As (aluminum drivers) as squawkers only (w/811s) and Beyma CP-25s on top (crossed over at 9000). My recollection is that 806As were also used with some pro versions of the VOTTs (with 511s), and I believe the 806As are suitable for the 511 horn (someone please correct me if I am wrong). Even though buying new from Great Plains is your safest bet, I have seen some incredible deals on 806As - and one of those "finds" is sitting in my left Valencia. I really love the sound of 806As, and there are still a number of them out there on the used market. Food for thought. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 " You said that you should keep the crossover points 3 octaves apart (??) with 1st order networks," I think that is basically an 'at least' proposition. Not that they need to be exactly 3 octaves. My guess why you want at least 3 octaves apart is to keep driver interaction limited to mostly two different drivers at a time. If you had a three way with a midrange that say covered only a single octave you would have driver interaction between three drivers over the midrange for example. "Not that I'm going to spend $550+ on a pair of JBL tweeters anytime soon, but I just want to know how the CT125s stack up to the praised 2404." I'm not even sure if you can buy them new anymore. Keep an eye on ebay for those. Sometimes really nice (nearly NOS) pairs come up. I bought all mine that way. They go for around $250 a pair. "... You are one sick dude!" How can you say that... you can't even see the ContraBass that is behind the screen.... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 "From what I understand the A's are rated for less power that the B and T versions which have loading caps to limit excursion and protect it." The 'A's also had a lighter diaphragm/voice coil which also made its way into the 'B's or at least in some of them. I had 7 of the 902-8Bs and they all had the lighter diaphragm in them. You can pull the loading caps but if you run 'em to 400hz first order it might not be a bad idea to leave them in. I had them in with the ALK Type As but pulled the loading caps when I went to the ES600s. I posted some measurements of the 902 (and K55s and a K77) in this thread: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/276852.aspx The 902 walked all over the K77s I had. The main difference is that on the 511B at the higher end of the response the dispersion narrows so the sweet spot gets smaller. "Have you ever heard the Altec 203B's?" Nope, that is another horn that would be fun to try though their dispersion is too narrow for my needs. I've almost bought one of them a couple of times. If one ever shows up locally (shipping these big horns is expensive... the MR94 cost more to ship then to purchase) at a reasonable price..... The multi-cells are just plain cool looking horns and the large format drivers are nice too. The multi-cells are funky in that they chop up the response of the driver in an attempt to more evenly disperse HF into the room then in a sectoral horn like the 511B. Basically an early attemp at something like a CD horn but in a bunch of grouped exponential horns that didn't need the EQ a CD horn (like the Manta Rays) require. "I would think with a 288G driver rated from 30 to16K in a 2way setup would be sweet." 288-8G are $$$$$. They have less extension then the 902s so you might miss the high end. The 288-8Ks get up to 10kHz pretty well see ( http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/607799.aspx ) then have a peak at around 12k or so then drop off from there. I ran mine two way as a test before tri-amping and they sounded good but were dark. With a lot of EQ them might have been OK though. On the multi-cells I cross them at 8kHz sharply. That helps to reduce the 'fingering' of the cells. Another horn that wouldbe fun to try with the larger formats (not sure they will fit though) is the Eighteen Sound XT1464. It may go low enough to work with a LaScala/Belle/Cornwall and it is a 1.4" throat like the Altec large format drivers. The horn shape appears to be closly related to Earl Geddes horn design so it would be interesting to hear what that sounds like. Too many horns... not enough time or $$$.... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 12, 2006 Author Share Posted May 12, 2006 Well like I said earlier, getting different drivers are being put on the back burner for now. Not only will I have to spend $400+ on the drivers, but also more money modding/upgrading the networks. So the K-55s will have to do for now. On a more recent issue that I'm going to have to deal with is this "ringing" I keep reading about with the 511B horn. How bad and loud is it? What's the best way to get rid of it? Oh yeah, the shipment update is that I'll be getting the adapters Monday and the horns Tuesday. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Shawn, thanks for all the great info and answers! And yes Terry, you guys are a bad influence on me! LOL Just ask anyone who knows me and they'll all tell you that I am a great one for major overkill. I can see it now, a year or so down the road, you guys (caugh-Shawn! [:|]) are going to have me looking for several of those MR94 horns for my system! I'm most likely going to get a pair of the 902 drivers in the not so distant future, but which ones? One eBay I've seen 8T and 8B versions? What's the difference between these two? I know the 8T is what comes on the new A7s. And when the time comes that I do get 902's, I'm going to need some input on modding the Type CS II networks for that driver. But that's a whole other thread on its own. [] I got my 902's from GPA. They are the "B" mod. With the pounding that I give them, I feel safer with the plugs. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Earl Geddes is coool. Terry, I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out how we get away with using first order networks with the drivers and horns we're using, I mean, it shouldn't work, but it does. We're sitting right at cut-off, and running at or below the -3dB points at the lower end of the driver's response. I mean, riding right on the edge, and everything I've read seems to indicate the driver shouldn't be loading properly. About a month ago I decided to see if it was possible to get the diaphragms to clack, and even using the most brutal material I have on hand I couldn't make it happen. Now, my room is smallish, and I'm only running 60 watts in push-pull -- but man was is smoking loud. I realize we have these drivers padded down, but it doesn't seem to me it should work without a good deal of distortion. Dean, I know what you mean. Ran up the SPL's and I thought mine were clacking, but it turned out to be things falling from the walls! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 "On a more recent issue that I'm going to have to deal with is this "ringing" I keep reading about with the 511B horn. How bad and loud is it? What's the best way to get rid of it?" $5 worth of Plumbers Putty from Home Depot. Put a nice sized blob of it on either of the 'lips' of the 511B and you are done. See this thread for example... http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/3/694406/ShowThread.aspx Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Do they still ring if mounted to a motor board? I would think if you mount the flange to something it would deaden it. Are you guys using putty when you you just have the horns on top of cabinets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Guys, I never noticed a ring to my 511's. I did put the rope caulk on them and noticed no difference. I left it on there just because I went through the trouble of doing it. I wouldn't fret over it. When I bought my 811's from sfogg, I didn't even consider caulking and I hear no ringing. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 " Do they still ring if mounted to a motor board?" Yes, like I said in that thread I had the 511Bs bolted at all 6 mounting points to the motorboard of my LaScalas with thick foam rubber insulation between the cabinet and the horn when I first noticed the ringing. Bolting it down seemed to do very little for the ringing. The ringing seems to be contained to the lips/vanes of the horn. Putting putty on the entire throat and body of the horn did pretty much nothing for it. But a blob on a lip kills it quickly. My 511B that was modded by Altec by simply cutting the welds in the vanes and filling them with basically rubber is dramatically deader then a stock 511B. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 12, 2006 Author Share Posted May 12, 2006 Guys, I never noticed a ring to my 511's. I did put the rope caulk on them and noticed no difference. I left it on there just because I went through the trouble of doing it. I wouldn't fret over it. When I bought my 811's from sfogg, I didn't even consider caulking and I hear no ringing. jc Works for me! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 "When I bought my 811's from sfogg, I didn't even consider caulking and I hear no ringing." How live is your room? If your room rings more then the horn it might hide it. I just tried the 'clap test' with another 811B and it rings pretty easily too. Take one outside and see if you can hear it ring then. How do you like the 811B? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 The 811 is good. I am mating it with a non horn bass bin which might be a mistake as I am getting some midrange sounds from the woofer...intentional in this setup. The 511 is better but with the sacrifice of a LARGE horn. I got the 811 for a slender wife lovin speaker. The 811 is better than a K600 though. Crossing the 811 at 700Hz "extremely" jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 "The 511 is better but with the sacrifice of a LARGE horn. " It is all relative. Tell you wife it could have been worse.... Shawn P.S. My wife is thrilled I have the dedicated room.... she would have shot me dead if I tried this in the living room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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