Tube amp question.

[Me Loves Khorns]

I went to the Pilgrimige and was amazed how my Khorns sounded with tubes. I have never heard tubes before, not a lot of options in Waco for such a thing.

I also love surround sound and movies.

What I would love to do is to set up a system by which I could listen to the Khorns in 2 channel with some tubes and then let my Yamaha +/- my Carver 5 channel amp run the rest of the speakers with surround, etc.

I have searched nearly every thread here and on Audio-Karma and am now thoroughly confused and bewildered. So, here are my ques:

1. There are numerous options in the 1000-2000 range for tube amps, from Chinese made like LA Audio, Cayin, Yolida, etc. They sure look pretty and the Cayin at the listening room in Hope sounded really nice. Some seem to be integrated. Are there some integrated that simply have a volume control for the amp and others that have an active type amp?

2. Could I use my Yamaha as a preamp of sorts and use the preouts to send the signal to the tube amps, and then someday upgrade with a tube preamp. Or, would it be better to get an integrated and bring my CD, PHONE, straight into the integrated, and cont. to bring the DVD,XBOX, etc. into the Yamaha?

3. There are also vintage options, esp. ones by Craig that look good. How is the reliability with old gear. I assume that it would be wise only to get an old set if it has been redone or at least thoroughly looked over by Craig or someone else. Getting an unaltered older one off ebay, etc, seems like the quality would vary widely. I suppose that if I were to get a new Chinese one, if anything ever went wrong, I have no idea how you would ever get it fixed...

4. What are the differences in simple English between how the SET amps and other types sound and act. I've read the technical differences on numerous threads, but what are the actuall differences in how they sound with my Khorns. I like music kinda loud, but certainly never as loud as the listening rooms in Hope were getting.

5. How much maintenence and upkeep is there on tubes. I have no idea how to bias or other things with them. Is this something that can be learned?

6. How does McIntosh SS sound with Khorns. Do they approach the warmth and sound of tubes?

That is a lot of ques. I have read hundreds of threads on all of this and understand that people vary in their opinions. I am starting to get in trouble with the fam for being on the internet so much trying to figure this out. Any help would be great.

Thanks, Paul

[Guest " "]

I sent you a PM.

Good questions...this thread should be intresting.

[Parrot]

4. What are the differences in simple English between how the SET amps and other types sound and act. I've read the technical differences on numerous threads, but what are the actuall differences in how they sound with my Khorns. I like music kinda loud, but certainly never as loud as the listening rooms in Hope were getting.

SET sounds otherworldly, like nothing you've ever heard before. I mean that in a bad sense.

If realism is what you're after, forget SET. It isn't just a question of how loud something plays, it is how it sounds when it is played loud. Low watt SET amps act as limiters to full range music, and when asked to play demanding material, compress its dynamic range to mushy sameness.

[rcarlton]

I'm running McIntosh MC-250 (SS) with my K-horn's. I thought they sounded as good as the K-horns at the farmhouse that were being driven by the McIntosh MC-30's. I would love to do a side by side comparison. My MC-250's run about $400-500 after being refurbished by Terry DeWick.

I believe Roger Russell (a famous McIntosh old school engineer) claimed there was no difference in sound between the McIntosh early SS and tubes. I'll see if I can find the quote.

[seti]

4.  What are the differences in simple English between how the SET amps and other types sound and act.  I've read the technical differences on numerous threads, but what are the actuall differences in how they sound with my Khorns.  I like music kinda loud, but certainly never as loud as the listening rooms in Hope were getting.

SET sounds otherworldly, like nothing you've ever heard before. I mean that in a bad sense.

If realism is what you're after, forget SET. It isn't just a question of how loud something plays, it is how it sounds when it is played loud. Low watt SET amps act as limiters to full range music, and when asked to play demanding material, compress its dynamic range to mushy sameness.

What PWK Said..........

[seti]

Your Khorns sounded beautiful on 15wpc of McIntosch amps with a tube pre. I'm not sure if there is an easy way to have both worlds without two different sets of gear but I'm sure someone will chime in on this one for you.

Here is a document I have found helpful called a taste of tubes. It answered alot of questions for me and I hope it does for you to here is the link.

http://162.39.155.132/~ian/taste.pdf

Thanks again for bringing the Khorns to Hope

[Parrot]

What PWK Said..........

"What this country needs is a really good five-watt amplifier." PWK

Yeah, he said that because there isn't such an animal []

[seti]

What PWK Said..........

"What this country needs is a really good five-watt amplifier." PWK

Yeah, he said that because there isn't such an animal []

Parrot,

I was thinking of the other phrase ; )

MeLovesKhorns,

You can always shop audiogon.com buy and sell pieces without losing money until you find the amp topology that you like and serves you best. Perhaps there are forum members in the area that would let you listen to their gear. Good luck

[rigma]

Me Loves Khorns,

I have been listening to Khorns for 40 years with many kinds of tube and SS amps. In my opinion nothing compares to a good 8 watt SET (300B) Amps. Others obviously think different.

Rigma

[steamer]

4. What are the differences in simple English between how the SET amps and other types sound and act. I've read the technical differences on numerous threads, but what are the actuall differences in how they sound with my Khorns. I like music kinda loud, but certainly never as loud as the listening rooms in Hope were getting.

SET sounds otherworldly, like nothing you've ever heard before. I mean that in a bad sense.

If realism is what you're after, forget SET. It isn't just a question of how loud something plays, it is how it sounds when it is played loud. Low watt SET amps act as limiters to full range music, and when asked to play demanding material, compress its dynamic range to mushy sameness.

In an attemp to avoid the above I have gone to an actively biamped configuration with SET amps for the highs and SS for lows.It sounds very good and takes advantage of the qualities I enjoy in both designs.

Greg

[Dax617]

Me loves Khorns I sent you a pm

Greg, did you have any trouble with crossover points?

[SET12]

Me Loves Khorns,

I have been listening to Khorns for 40 years with many kinds of tube and SS amps. In my opinion nothing compares to a good 8 watt SET (300B) Amps. Others obviously think different.

Rigma

This man has really just about said it all! Tubes are about harmonic magic, imaging, decays and even transit repsonse many will argue that single ended designs are mushy and flabby because of no damping factor but do they tell you that push pull cancels out the even order harmonics that are most pleasing to the human ear leaving the wicked odd order harmonics no! and some SET's are mushy and yet properly implimented designs can be very tight and fast. And I see Rigma has a Model 91 300B from Anglea Instruments you can even build one of these for your self and just remember the worlds most expensive amplifier is not push-pull it is a single ended 833 selling for 350,000$ of which is a Transmitting tube design like mine below which is the glow of an Svetlana 811-10 running in Class A2 this really puts mood into music as well as creating a huge sound stage often much larger than any AV solid-state gear while basking in a warm glow!

May the Glow be with you!

SET12

[Rivendell61]

Here are the measurements on that $350,000 amp:

http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index5.html

Mark

[Parrot]

Thanks, Mark, for linking to that review of the "ultimate" SET amp. Saved me the trouble. Highlights from John Atkinson's test results:

So, what about the SH-833's output capability power? Those 550 lbs and that humongous transmitter tube promise a lot of power, not to mention the specified "effective" output of 150W. As you can see from figs.5 and 6, which plot the percentage of distortion and noise in the Wavac's output against power from the 8 and 4 ohm taps, respectively, that promise is not kept. At our usual definition of clipping1% THD+noisethe Wavac gives out just 2W or less into loads ranging from twice the nominal tap impedance to one quarter that nominal value.

. . . . .

Only between 10mW and 100mW does it produce what would conventionally be called "low" distortion. So why did the amplifier sound more linear than these measurements would suggest? The answer lies in the harmonic content of the distortion. At moderate power levels in the midrange, it is almost entirely pure second harmonic (fig.7). At 1%, the level is high enough that it will be just audiblehear for yourself, using the distortion tracks on Stereophile's Test CD 2. However, second-harmonic distortion, being musically consonant and close enough in frequency terms to the fundamental that there will be plenty of masking, is both relatively benign and can often be preferred to an undistorted signal, in that it sounds "fatter" and "warmer." End of excerpts.

Can you imagine anyone in the entire world being stupid enough to pay $350,000 for a pair of these amps, billed as 150W but actually 2W? LOL!!!!!!!

[Deang]

I don't know, if you put one each speaker in a multichannel system you might be able to accurately reproduce the sound of a shoe stepping into a cow patty.

[Deang]

I for one don't recommend running a solid state front end with tube amps.

You should start with a nice tube preamp, but your situation is problematic. You have a turntable, so I suppose you listen to records, and to pull off what you want to do you need both a phono stage and HT bypass.

Does the Blueberry have the HT bypass feature?

[Me Loves Khorns]

I guess what I'm needing to do is to set up almost 2 parallel systems at the same time.

Tubes with tube pre for 2 channel with CD and Phono as inputs, and surround sound using the ss as the processor.

Will a tube preamp take the signal from a SS processor, my yamaha, from the preouts and then send that signal on to the tube amps to use for the front 2 channels during surround sound?

And, my Thorens has the phono pream in it. All I have to do currently is to go with the RCA's straight into the back of theYamaha into the phono inputs. I don't have a seperate preamp for it like other phono's do. If this is the case, can I go into almost any preamp using the RCA inputs or will I have to have a preamp that specifically is set up for phono. I love vinyl and am growing my collection. I am from the digital generation and some of this is new to me. But I love my good records more than my CD's now.

Thanks to all for all of your helpfull opinions.

Paul

[thebes]

Sounds like a fun journey you are on.

What I do in my main system is run a switch box (Niles are highly

thought of) between my 2 channel and HT setups and done this way you

can use the Khorns for both 2 Channel and HT.

Here's some suggestions for a seperate setup at the lower end of your budget which might work well:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1156450054

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1156464124

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1155576022

I have the CJ PV3 and it's pretty damn good for the price with excellent detail, deep soundstage and a really nice phono stage.

Quicksilver has a great rep and although these only put out about 25 watts that should be plenty for hte Khorns.

The Mark 3's are well thought of by many members and this guy also has a pair of Mark 4's for the same price.

I'm sure others here would be able to fill in details on what you will,

and won't, get from these amps if you decided you wanted to explore

these.

Hope this helps.

[thebes]

The first link is not working right so just do a copy and paste or use

the search function at Audiogon and type in "Conrad Johnson".

[Cal Blacksmith]

The phono input in your Yamaha has a built in extra gain stage to boost the signal from the TT. There is not a phono preamp in the TT. If you were to plug the TT into any other stereo input, you would see a LARGE drop in volume. Go ahead and try it, you won't hurt anything.

I would think a switch box is the answer for you. Two seperate setups with the Khorns switched to either. Use the Yamaha for movies only (or 7 ch concerts on DVD) and the two ch tube rig for everything else.