Al Klappenberger Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Andy W, YES! I think we are in total agreement. I suspect that the brain is simply not able to add up the exact phase and intensity of every sound it hears in real time. It takes and oscilloscope to do that! I think all the brain knows is the amplitude of each component of a waveforem. Is it there and how loud is it? I think you can scatter the phase of the harmonics of a fundamental all over the place and the brain won't care. This, by the way, is what "group" delay does. It leads me to conclude that "group delay" is a red harring. Since the time relationships between the components boil down to phase relationships, the ear is also deaf to time delay errors up to some point. The question becomes: To WHAT point! I think the brain is sensitive to the smearing of a single tone if it arives TWICE, once from one driver and then again from another driver that is fartherther away even when it is below that point. This double source of a single sound also leads to comb filtering besides! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 hey jubers, no pictures tonight. final assembly is getting ready for the build tomorrow so i should have plenty of pictures tomorrow. hey andy w, long time no see. hope to be up in indy sometime next month. alkberg, in playing with the cinema systems, i tend to adjust phase until no amplitude interference occurs with the sum of the lf and hf as compared to just the lf curving and just the hf curving. this tends to leave just plain lole obing to do its dirty deeds. also, i waiting for hunter to get back to indy to get me the patent number. should have it tomorrow as i hear he got back to indy today. berryboy roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Roy, I think I follow what you said about the phasing between high and low drivers. The problem seems to be that the phasing is different at all point across the "interferance window", as I call it. Move the phase of a driver and the "glitches" simply move to some other frequency. That is one of my reasons for liking extreme-slope networks. That "window" becomes very narrow and reduces the possible number of different phase relationships that can exist as well as the frequency range over which there is enough energey for both drivers to interact with one another. My experiments with my Belles and just about every squawker horn and driver combination I have tried seems to bear this out. The problem is that the only phase choices I have are +-180 by spawing the wires to the driver! Changing the insertion phase means a network redesign! Since my ES networks high and lowpass sections are normalized versions "inverted" and frequency-scaled back, they are a fixed 180 degrees apart again! This would seem great until the different propogation times screw up the works! BTW: I am looking forward to seeing that patent. I'm afraid it will be in lattice form that my computer ladder analysis program can't handle though! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 hey jubers, no pictures tonight. final assembly is getting ready for the build tomorrow so i should have plenty of pictures tomorrow. berryboy roy Please don't forget to remove the empty beer cans out of the bass bins. [A] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 long time no see. hope to be up in indy sometime next month. There's been some talk of an Indy get together...if you're gonna be up in the area it would be a blast if you could make it too. Wasn't there some talk of Trey getting a bunch of the other engineers too? Feel free to bring those Jubes up with you so that we can properly break them in for Coytee - I think Colter has some macrotechs out in his garage... [] What is the peak SPL capability of a pair of Jubilees anyway? 130dB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 long time no see. hope to be up in indy sometime next month. There's been some talk of an Indy get together...if you're gonna be up in the area it would be a blast if you could make it too. Wasn't there some talk of Trey getting a bunch of the other engineers too? Feel free to bring those Jubes up with you so that we can properly break them in for Coytee - I think Colter has some macrotechs out in his garage... [] What is the peak SPL capability of a pair of Jubilees anyway? 130dB? only 128 db continous..... i will bring them to indy as carry on luggage. i guess mikey's (thanks for letting me call you that mr. colter) macrotech's will have to do if that's all you got. berryboy roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 oh right...I forgot Klipsch dudes aren't a fan of crown on principal of supporting the competition [][] Btw, if the Jubilee has a 110dB sensitivity you're talking only 64W of power handling??? I know that's kinda like complaining that my car doesn't burn more gas, but surely more output should be achievable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 oh right...I forgot Klipsch dudes aren't a fan of crown on principal of supporting the competition [][] Btw, if the Jubilee has a 110dB sensitivity you're talking only 64W of power handling??? I know that's kinda like complaining that my car doesn't burn more gas, but surely more output should be achievable? Perhaps it's finally being outed as the wimp it is? [A] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy W Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Andy W, YES! I think we are in total agreement. I suspect that the brain is simply not able to add up the exact phase and intensity of every sound it hears in real time. It takes and oscilloscope to do that! I think all the brain knows is the amplitude of each component of a waveforem. Is it there and how loud is it? I think you can scatter the phase of the harmonics of a fundamental all over the place and the brain won't care. This, by the way, is what "group" delay does. It leads me to conclude that "group delay" is a red harring. Since the time relationships between the components boil down to phase relationships, the ear is also deaf to time delay errors up to some point. The question becomes: To WHAT point! I think the brain is sensitive to the smearing of a single tone if it arives TWICE, once from one driver and then again from another driver that is fartherther away even when it is below that point. This double source of a single sound also leads to comb filtering besides! Al K. I wouldn't say it's a red herring, it's just that other things are much more important (again in the midrange). As frequency goes down phase information becomes more important, and the ear/brain can use it for localization (60 degrees of phase shift is a much longer time at 100Hz than it is at 2kHz). At 1/2 wavelengths approaching or shorter than the distance between your ears, localization based on phase alone is difficult or impossible, a relative intensity is more important. Some would argue that group delay matters more at low frequency (some prefer sealed over ported enclosures, for instance), but this again might be ambiguous since damping (which again plays into relative level, and also "ringing" of transients in bad designs, which is easy for most people to hear) is also a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 oh right...I forgot Klipsch dudes aren't a fan of crown on principal of supporting the competition [][] Btw, if the Jubilee has a 110dB sensitivity you're talking only 64W of power handling??? I know that's kinda like complaining that my car doesn't burn more gas, but surely more output should be achievable? hey doc, sorry, my brain is in commercial mode most of the time and i used 105 db....... actually, i was being sarcastic, i like crown amps especially macrotechs.... berryboy roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 Roy, I think I follow what you said about the phasing between high and low drivers. The problem seems to be that the phasing is different at all point across the "interferance window", as I call it. Move the phase of a driver and the "glitches" simply move to some other frequency. That is one of my reasons for liking extreme-slope networks. That "window" becomes very narrow and reduces the possible number of different phase relationships that can exist as well as the frequency range over which there is enough energey for both drivers to interact with one another. My experiments with my Belles and just about every squawker horn and driver combination I have tried seems to bear this out. The problem is that the only phase choices I have are +-180 by spawing the wires to the driver! Changing the insertion phase means a network redesign! Since my ES networks high and lowpass sections are normalized versions "inverted" and frequency-scaled back, they are a fixed 180 degrees apart again! This would seem great until the different propogation times screw up the works! BTW: I am looking forward to seeing that patent. I'm afraid it will be in lattice form that my computer ladder analysis program can't handle though! Al K. yep i like steep crossover slopes as well to minize the overlap band. here is the patent info.... us 2003/0194098a1 patent application publication it is a patent application. berryboy roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Andy, I agree about the phase issue with respect to stereo image, BUT, I beleive it is the phase of the same singal between the left and right speakers. What I have been talking about is the phasing between to DIFFERENT singals from the same speaker. Your ear / brain can't compare to unrelated singals but it can compare one signal between TWO ears. This is why I always build my netwroks using matched caps left and right. This helps match phase left for right. Roy, Thanks, I will try to find that patent by the number. If I can't find it I might have to grovel to you to get you to fax it to me. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy W Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Al, Just to clarify, I'm also talking about sound from a single speaker or instrument. And also to clarify, I am with you 100% that phase of fundamental and harmonics aren't nearly as important as amplitude, even in the low frequencies -- in the steady state. But, I believe that phase relationships (or group delay) between the fundamental and harmonics is important in the transients at low frequency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Andy, I'm not sure about low frequency transients considering that it takes higher frequency components to MAKE transients. These are also generated by higher harmonics. The best a woofer can do without the high frequency section of the speaker to help is simply a thump. I'm just not sure about what your I talking about, I guess. AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Roy, Thanks to a little help from Gil McDermott I was able to look over that pattent. I am not surprised you did a lot of head scratching over it. It looks like BS to me! That "all-pass" in there is drawn very strangely. I think it boils down to a highpass (two parts on top) and a parallel L-C "trap" of two parts drawn below. This is assuming those litle triangles are ground symbols. That isn't even an all-pass as I understand them. I think the thing to do with that thing is forget it! At least it doesn't seem to be aplicable to our situation. AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 I'm not sure about low frequency transients considering that it takes higher frequency components to MAKE transients. So by removing the high frequency content for the first few ms (like in the cornwall), your speaker is unable to "make" transients happen. In speakers where the bass is lagging you've got similar effects but in the other direction (the high frequency content arrives early). Heck, I should even be able to simulate this on paper...it was on a few homework assignments last semester. I'll have to dig up some of that crap and try to get it scanned (no way I'm gonna try typing it out on the computer). For what it's worth, at 144BPM there are rhythms that get as fast as 3ms per note...I only mention it to indicate that the human ear is at least that "fast" (since its able to distinguish each note as different). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 well jubers, these are the last pictures that i got to show you. meet some of the ladies that work in the front office that make the place run. miss donna, sally and sherry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 say hi to jake. he is the final assy supervisor and he makes sure that things are built right the first time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 there are two ladies that built the jubs that you will be enjoying. here is miss joyce.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 and miss dolores Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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