Duke Spinner Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Hmmmmnnnnnn... i musta missed the slag on PP, Parrot.... thought it would give old Bucky some insight Geez .... everybody has an Agenda in the Audio market.....what could possibly be wrong w/ PP..??? 999.01% of the Differences people Claim to hear..... can't be proven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Hmmmmnnnnnn... i musta missed the slag on PP, Parrot.... thought it would give old Bucky some insight Geez .... everybody has an Agenda in the Audio market.....what could possibly be wrong w/ PP..??? 999.01% of the Differences people Claim to hear..... can't be proven Absolutely! That's why you should take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt. The best way to decide what you like is to audition it yourself. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 i musta missed the slag on PP, Parrot.... thought it would give old Bucky some insight Yeah, it's set up as a scientific article but the completely unscientific conclusion betrays his agenda. Kinda like editorials disguised as news articles, which is now standard for newspapers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Don't worry about old BUCKY, I not smart enough to Read, never mind understand it, I'll figure it out someday..................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 his conclusion seems clear to me, We can sum it all up in these words of wisdom, from one of the greatest tube amp transformer designers the world has ever known, Dutch electrical engineer Menno van der Veen: "In reality, measurements are fine and can help you. But we have the finest measurement devices available on the two sides of our head: our EARS, and are not they fantastic? Well, use them and rely on them." further reading, Music and the Human Ear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody_Mack Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 This is a very long post..sorry. I am still very newb to the Forum and to real hi-fi equipment, but I, also, have an opinion. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> I bought my Heresies in 1983, I believe. I grew up very near Hope so I knew about Klipsch, and I had heard a pair driven by one of the Classic Mac SS amps a few years earlier. I used the Heresies for a short while with a smallish (30Watt?) receiver; think it was a Caliber. Sounded pretty good; at least better than the boxed rack systems that were (and still are for the general public) popular with most folks. Didnt have that setup long because I bought a mid-fi rack system by Fisher; one of their Studio Standard systems. This system sounded pretty good; separate integrated amp pushing 150WPC, separate tuner, equalizer, cassette, turntable, etc. The large floor-standing speakers had 15 woofers. It would get loud and with lots of bass. The amp had a sweetness about it, yet it was also serious in that it would get loud and sweet. Had a bad lighting storm in the area and I think lightning hit the power line; pretty much fried most of the electronics in my house, brand-new big screen included! All of the rack system survived except for that amp. I got it repaired once, but the power supply section must have been so weak, that it happened again during a storm, even with a decent surge protector. I still have the amp (and the rest of the rack system), and I do want to have it repaired again someday. Now that I (really) know what good sounds like (with my new tubes), I want to go back to that SS powerhouse to compare, and to also enjoy the different sound. After the amp died again I replaced it with a Pioneer 100W receiver. This was one of the first good Pro-Logic receivers. Unlike most of todays surround receivers, it would play quality stereo music on the left and right front channels. So, this filled the void in my rack system. I enjoyed for a while and gradually started loosing interest in quality music altogether; at least in the home environment (I did have a very nice system in my pickup). OK, let me go ahead and get to the point here. (for some of you, its not like I am keeping you from something; some of you are on here round the clock, damn near!) A couple of years ago, (seems like overnight I was struck by the hi-fi bugweird) I dragged the Heresies back out of the closet and they replaced the Fishers in my system. Oh my, I thought, what the heck had I been thinking? Those poor babies back in that closet for twenty years! They dont have near the bass of those Fishers, but they have so much more in all other areas; especially clarity and efficiency. They are sounding really good driven by that SS Pioneer receiver. I will note, however, that I was using heavy equalization to get the room response the way I like it. (key word here, the way I like it) I have always used equalization to some extent. It provides the sound I want to hear. Until now, that is (read below). I read about all things hi-fi, especially tubes for the last two years. I finally ordered my Bottlehead kits and assembled them. As I said, I was enjoying the SS Pioneer sound with my Heresies. But, I had to use equalization to get that sound. I had been reading that the purists do not use equalization or tone control at all. I was a little skeptical leading up to the time I rolled the tubes into my system; skeptical that I could realize that same or better sonic quality without tone control and with a mere 3 Watts. So here I go, unplug the rack system and connect the Heresies to the Paramours. Boy, was I wrong. OMG, this is unfreakinbelievable! I am suddenly transported to a new sonic dimension. Clarity of all instruments are improved. The bass has a purer sound but probably not as low in frequency. Kinda hard to tell with the Heresies as they dont go that low anyway, but they have a very clean bass. A comment I heard about Heresies; they do what they do very honestly. The highs have been toned down, cleaned up a bit. I dont necessarily mean rolled off, cause I still hear what I heard before. I think maybe more refined is a good definition. The Heresies are producing less of that bright sound that they are infamous for (more so on other Forums that this one). And the midrange, well is nothing short of glorious. Will it get loud? The answer is yes. Hard numbers do not lie. 97dB efficiency driven by one watt is, well, loud. Do they get as loud as I ever want to listen? No; same thing.the numbers dont lie. If I want to hit 120 dB, my moderate system is not going to get me there. I need lots more power and bigger speakers. But in my limited listening room (10 x 12), I am very content with my system right now. I have some future plans that will probably eventually include a pair of Khorns in a large room. But my present assumption is that I will be driving them with SET, most of the time. Again, 105dB is loud. Maybe this is not a fair comparison? The 100WPC SS is an above average Pioneer unit that cost about $400 back in the mid 90s. The tube amps, FP-III pre and Paramour 2A3 monoblocks at 3WPC, set me back about $900 plus my time to build them. I would love to hear (and own) a high quality and high power SS amp. I agree they have their place and function in music. For those days when I am in the mood for a concert sound, that kick-drum echoing through the hall, I will have the muscle to get there. I recently attended a Bottlehead group meeting. The host had all sorts of audio gear in two separate listening areas. He can change out components on the fly and get the most out of each listening session depending on mood, desired music, etc. That is where I want to be. This is a very good thread. And, borrowing a line from one of the better on-line mags, all that really matters is that you Enjoy the Music.com® Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Since Coda referenced the page with the single watt statement, I decided to actually read it. Amazing what one finds when they actually read things in context. So, how many SET amps commonly used employ the kind of feedback that PK mentions in the article? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Tube-n-horns, nice write up, I'm happy for you, don't want to get into this thread anymore, but if you search back a couple of pages you will find pictures from the Texas Bottleneck get together those guys had, some great looking equipment, I believe I called it Audio Heaven, worth your time to take a look, or maybe you already know about it. Welcome to the Madness................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Since Coda referenced the page with the single watt statement, I decided to actually read it. Amazing what one finds when they actually read things in context. So, how many SET amps commonly used employ the kind of feedback that PK mentions in the article? Hmmmmnnnnnn ..... You .... would have to ask that Question, wouldn't you ..... i see most SET people promoting NO feedback as a Good thing... which is far from the Truth judicious amounts of negative feedback ... keep an amplifier operating in it's design range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 "So, how many SET amps commonly used employ the kind of feedback that PK mentions in the article?" Some do I suppose, but if the output iron for the circuit measures well and has good linear bandwidth, inductance, with no ringing or peaks, and possibly be able to measure as well inverted, then feedback should not have to be used. This is measuring the OPT out of circuit, with regards to a single-ended triode amp. PK on that page seems to be refering to 6V6/6L6 PP amplifiers. (I think) Even then, if the PP OPT is of good quality, then feedback should be kept to a minimum. A triode output tube in a no-feedback SE design, will still have some negative feedback through the output tube itself with regards to the filament/cathode structure....sumthin' like that... Even Klipsch mentions on that page the quality of the output iron is a big factor. WTFDIK...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Yeah, I suggested to Oldbuckster to pay close attention to the Amplifier Requirements section because there was a lot mentioned there. Focusing only on the part that had to do with the 1 watt peak power requirement for home use misses the point. But since there weren't many 1 watt amps available during that era either, I think you'll have a hard time supporting the "marketing hype" label. The feedback issue you're bringing up tells me that distortion may have been a bigger (audible) issue with triode PP designs versus a SET design, though triodes should be more linear in operation than a beam tube arrangement. Eddie Vaughn brings up some additional points on feedback and the amps of the Golden Era of Hi-Fi, beginning on page 8 of the SE v PP article. Apparently, PWK found a few amps that were atypical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody_Mack Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Tube-n-horns, nice write up, I'm happy for you, don't want to get into this thread anymore, but if you search back a couple of pages you will find pictures from the Texas Bottleneck get together those guys had, some great looking equipment, I believe I called it Audio Heaven, worth your time to take a look, or maybe you already know about it. Welcome to the Madness................... 'Buckster, Surely you meant Lone Star Bottleheads......yep, I know about it; I was there! Actually there are a couple of pics of my new Foreplay pre-amp that I built, and even one of my fat a$$! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Tube-n-horns, nice write up, I'm happy for you, don't want to get into this thread anymore, but if you search back a couple of pages you will find pictures from the Texas Bottleneck get together those guys had, some great looking equipment, I believe I called it Audio Heaven, worth your time to take a look, or maybe you already know about it. Welcome to the Madness................... 'Buckster, Surely you meant Lone Star Bottleheads......yep, I know about it; I was there! Actually there are a couple of pics of my new Foreplay pre-amp that I built, and even one of my fat a$$! Rick That's what I meant.........You were there...........Lucky man.....great looking gear.....looked like a good time, I'd like to go to something like that........Foreplay...hhhmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 "The Quardraflex ST19 with that Nikko, will flapp your corduroy {green,brown,creme,red} bellbottoms, sock it too me, groovie, banana split" Pacific Stereo sellsman{person} circa 1972 ....... hook a SET to those an see how they sound, this is a visa versa listening experment thread, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 "The Quardraflex ST19 with that Nikko, will flapp your corduroy {green,brown,creme,red} bellbottoms, sock it too me, groovie, banana split" Pacific Stereo sellsman{person} circa 1972 ....... hook a SET to those an see how they sound, this is a visa versa listening experment thread, isn't it? Who would want to "hook" anything to a pair of those unless you're dragging them to the dump? Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 This woman sure doesn't have a very smart dog: Canine driver lands owner in doghouse Aug. 28, 2006. 09:51 AM ASSOCIATED PRESS BEIJING They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks. In the case of a pooch in northern China, that includes driving a car. Police said a woman in Hohhot, capital of north China's Inner Mongolia region, crashed her car while giving her dog a driving lesson, the official Xinhua news agency reported Monday. There were no injuries and both vehicles were only slightly damaged, Inhua said. The woman, identified only be her surname, Li, said her dog "was fond of crouching on the steering wheel and often watched her drive," the news agency report. "She thought she would let the dog `have a try' while she operated the accelerator and brake," the report said. "They did not make it far before crashing into an oncoming car." Xinhua did not say what kind of dog or vehicles were involved, but Li paid for repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Coda, You have a PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 The following is my take on a NEWAS meeting held this past weekend Aug. 26 people attending have all different types of speakers and amplifiers http://newaudiosociety.com/index.htm NEWAS Exhalted GURU **** SET View Profile Email Instant Message Gender: male Posts: 331 Re: August "Round Robin" Meeting « Reply #43 on: 27.08.2006 at 10:07:30 » Quote Quote Modify Modify Remove Remove The Round Robin Forchs Place, "Jeff own's Druid loudspeakers" Was just excellent! I cant get over its blooming and when I say bloom I mean like opening up like a budding flower in every direction! And connecting with its siblings! I have never heard a break in as dramatic as his I know he is very happy with its results we all enjoyed it much and anyone that heard it a year and hasnt heard it as of late is very much in for a treat! Jeff added an additional Sub and very carefully integrated it into his system with very nice results. Great job Jeff! SETs place, First I want to thank everyone that came it was a full house here to be sure! The newest arrival to my system is the additional Furman Power Factor Corrector. I use one on each monoblock the effect of which enhances monoblock performance by giving each mono its own current reserve. It works by lowering the lines AC impedance. Other conditioners may get the noise! But there are designers now that consider this a bigger issue such as the designer at Ridge Street I believe was the reference that Raggy gave me that led me on a long search that led me to the Furman product line that Raggy also uses in his studio work he has reported the company as being very reputable. There are other manufactures such as Nagra building power factor correction circuitry into their reference power amplifiers. I might also add since my purchase of my first Furman I have not felt like I have had any power quality issues even on the hot days when everyone in the neighborhood had their central air on or I could see the line sagging. Scooters place, The last stop being Scooters place Forch, Raggy and I attending Scots system is about entertainment! He has a vast knowledge of music as well as a vast collection of it he never ceased in the entertainment of us. Scot uses modified Klipsch LaScalas using an ALK diy crossover network allowing the LaScalas to breath almost life itself thru Western Electric 300Bs and of course his Garrard 301 spinning black discs real entertainment! Talk about entertainment all three homes were using Single-Ended tube amps a 3watt, an 8watt, and a 10watt amp! While at Scooters I told of a story of one of the Klipsch forum members recommending 5 times the power of what you actually think youre going to use I thought of this as pretty funny! Since there is one huge debut on Solid State vs. Single Ended amps on klipschs 2 channel forum some 7000 views and 30 pages of debut here. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/4/ShowForum.aspx This has been a real debuting issue as you know how much power one needs well I can tell you what Scot was using because we measured it using a vintage Simpson analog meter to measure the average AC voltage we estimated our listening levels at 90-95 at most and the most AC I saw was 1volt that works out to be 125 milliwatts for average power not looking at peaks. Now I said our listening levels were some 90-95db peak not looking at just the average at our chairs using a common rule of thumb that I have come up with in my experience this means that at the speaker 1 meter away would be 100-105db peak levels his speaker is at 104db/watt at 1 meter meaning that we were barley using 1 watt peak to entertain us! So Gee 2 watts would be good for me so 5 times 2 is 10 Yeah! I guess my power that I have is good! Klipsch is a very high efficiency speaker if you want Quality you really need to give the Klipsch tubes is what Scooter says and I couldnt agree with him more! He said he just doesnt understand how anybody would want to use SS with a Klipsch and listen seriously again I agree! We ended the night at the Stone Cellar we each had an absolutely mouth watering half pound burger and fries and some nice Scottish Ale. Making for another NEWAS meeting good time! SET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 I find it extremely ironic that the Parrot wants to start discussing 'facts' at this point in the thread. The fact of the matter is that the thread was quite civil and informative until page 7 when the Parrot contributes with his opinion (which he never qualifies as opinion - he always presents his pure opinion as undeniable fact): From page 7 of this thread: SET vs. old SS: And the answer is: Any old SS amp will crush any SET amp. Pure opinion. SET is lifeless, not only at high volumes but at low volumes too. It's not necessary to play a recording of a symphony at anywhere near a realistic level to figure that out. Pure opinion. If, if, there were something going on with SET at low levels that could not be rendered better by a push-pull or even some SS amp, then SET would merit some consideration. But it's always anemic, that's just the way it is. Pure opinion. SET has inverse bragging rights about being low-watt, but other than as a science demonstration, so what? HUH? Every time I've heard SET being demonstrated for potential sale, it's always the same little girl jazz singer kind of material, maybe with someone tapping a couple bass strings or brushing a drum kit. SET is barely passable that way, if you want to restrict yourself to that kind of source music. If you put on anything with some energy, it comes out spiritless. Pure opinion. The Parrot has been given "time-outs" by the moderator of this forum for his anti-SET baiting and he is back at it once again - surprise suprise. It would be nice to see one of the Parrot's anti-SET posts prefaced with a simple 'IMO' but he doesn't seem honest enought to concede to that statement. Rarely (if ever) have seen a SET advocate say that SET amps are the be all - end all for everyone in every situation or bash anyone else's desire to enjoy or experiment with other topologies. I have personally enjoyed several vintage SS amps, several push-pull tube amps, several SET amps of varying output wattages, and even a digital amp. It's all good! Probably the best post on this thread. This addresses the heart of the matter and why there is consistent friction on this topic. The PP guys want the Friction and Create it all by themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Probably the best post on this thread. This addresses the heart of the matter and why there is consistent friction on this topic. The PP guys want the Friction and Create it all by themselves. All right, Sock has a fan! But please note that Sock does not blame the "PP guys," but just one little ol' Parrot who speaks Truth to (low) Power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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