I'm told Klipsch horns sound "harsh"???

[Duke Spinner]

is the relative increase in THD typically that large (10% at realistic output levels...). That amount would be worrisome.

Crown rates thier amps at milliwatt, as well as full power levels

the distortion spec is very low, and similar to the full power spec

[JetSnake]

Well I'll with you guys. I didn't believe it when I heard what some people said.

Wuzzzer, thanks for the offer, I'm not sure I make it to St.Cloud too often any more, I'm not going to rule it out but not sure it's needed.

Like I said in my first post, I haven't listen to many other speakers, so when someone says something bad about the speakers I have, I don't have a leg to stand on in defense. I've heard these statements on the Audioaolics and Xbox forums.

Also I said I couldn't decide if I should build my 5.1 around my current KG5.5's or around the RF-63's that I would like to use to replace the 5.5's. Well, after reading Jay post about him taking home and un-boxing his RF-83's, I'm more enthused about the RF-63 then my current 5.5's. I don't think I can do the 83's but might be able to reach for the 63's, so if there's any commission to be had, it should go to Jay for putting this motivation in me.

Wuzzer, I lived in St.Cloud for about 6 years. I dropped $10,000 at audio king the first four years I lived there. Too bad that store went out of business. I got to know John Warner and Pall Glass and after spending that kinda money, I'm sure they got to know me.

Hmmm, I think I'm ready to sell my sled to upgrade my HT. Anyone looking for a FireCat???

[wuzzzer]

I too spent a ton of $$ at Audio King/Ultimate Electronics. A lady I used to work with used to date Paul Glass! Small world, eh? I know John and also the former store manager Tom.

As an FYI, someone on the Minneapolis craigslist just posted a pair of 5.5s for sale if you're looking for another pair.

[garyrc]

I've had Klipschorns since 1982. Acoustic guitar is better on them than any other speaker I've heard (and I've heard many of the golden ears' favorite speakers). So are all other instruments, and massed instruments, except violins, which can be a little harsh -- occasionally. But, I wonder why .... especially because I have never heard a harsh violin, or set of violins, on second generation tapes (from masters) I used to bring home, and, I think, never on tapes at all, and rarely on vinyl, with my old Ortofon moving coil, all played through the same Khorns. 1) Could it be something about the CD medium that the Khorns are just revealing? The violin harshness occurs on one out of, say 20, violin CDs, and quite rarely on other media. 2) Could it be the accurate sound of micing a passionate violinist way too closely, and, yea, verily, accurately revealed microphone diaphragm strain, even unto the barely perceptible onset of diaphragm crashing -- too subtle for most cone or dome tweeters to reveal, with their consonant, rich, but blurring harmonic sidebars in the way? Oh, yeah, I have also heard harshness very occasionally when a tenor (man, not sax) was entirely too close to the mic.

[TheEAR]

Garyrc,

To each his own.Yes Khorns do sound great,after all we have Klipsch's signature speaker and one of the timeless classic designs.

In actuality I do not belive you can hear any harshness from Khorns when using a tube amp and p[reamp and listen to a quality record on the good old turn table.This is next to impossible.With CD's you have too many faulty recordings and the CD medium itself is crude(compared to SACD and most importantly vynil recordings).

Horns reveal more,focusing on the listener(in a proper setup).And yes,I know what you say when you say it sounds better (acoustic guitar).Is it actually so? Well recorded guitar sounds great thru horns and simply REAL thru my Dynes S5.4(no subs admited here).The artists is THERE right there This could be debated,but like i've said to each his own.

I will always have horns and direct radiating,as each can reproduce someting the other will never be capable.

[colterphoto1]

Yes to what TheEAR has put forth here.

M

[Werner Enge]

A violin played direct in the near of ya ears sound harsh , not smooth .

The Klipschorn does it .

An SG Guitar plugged into an AC30 comes smooth with much mid´s .

The Klipschorn does it .

Live music anyway what is is comes fast and dry .

The Klipschorn does it .

Who in hell needs other boooooooring speaker stuff ?

[jbsl]

Sie sind ein sehr intelligenter Mann Werner!

I agree 100% with Werner!

[garyrc]

JetSnake,

It suddenly dawned on me that since you put a space between "Klipsch" and "horn," you maybe referring to any Klipsch speaker that is at least partly horn loaded, rather than specifically and exclusively the Klipschorn (nickname Khorn).

"Big box" dealers that don't carry the Klipsch Heritage line, and magazines and online sources that don't review them, occasionally don't even know the true Klipschorn exists (it was once reported on this forum that a salesperson was asked if the store he worked for carried, or could get, Klipschorns, and he said, "all of these Klipsch speakers are Klipschorns" (!) One European critic failed to take into account that the true Klipschorn has undergone many changes over the years, different drivers, mid horns, tweeters, tweeter mounting, internal wood structure of the bass horn, and many changes in crossover networks. Yes, Klipsch characterizes the changes as minor, and in detail only, but the newer ones really sound different.

I can only vouch for real Klipschorns (1982 and c 2004 upgrade), Belle Klipsch (c 2005), which are both fully horn loaded (Belle no longer available new), and the Heresy II (partly horn loaded). None are harsh with good recordings and amps, with the exception of borderline bad violin recordings (see my earlier post in this thread).

[cjgeraci]

"I can only vouch for real Klipschorns (1982 and c 2004 upgrade), Belle Klipsch (c 2005), which are both fully horn loaded (Belle no longer available new), and the Heresy II (partly horn loaded). None are harsh with good recordings and amps, with the exception of borderline bad violin recordings (see my earlier post in this thread)."

Guess I would have to disagree. I have heard harsh "real Klipschorns" being run with ordinary solid state preamps and amps and/or receivers, and the speakers were harsh more than just momentarily or more than just one out of ten songs or so. Contrary to what some have posted, some outsiders have only heard pre-AK-4 Klipschorns with ordinary solid state, and they can sound pretty screechy when that happens. Especially with compressed CDs. It can be the nature of these revealing speakers.

I think that the AK-4 package/upgrade was specifically overengineered with those outsiders in mind. So you can run much lower quality solid state with AK-4 Klipschorns, and they won't sound harsh. Not my particular brand of tea, however.

You run NAD so you probably have not had that problem - even with your 1982s (based on my prior experience with NAD). Not everyone runs NAD, solid state-wise. Then again, I have even heard some Heritage sound "harsh" with some "good" solid state.

Ear (Arthur) stated it correctly - tubes. Most Klipschorns, other Heritage, and higher quality Reference will not sound harsh so long as there are tube pres and/or tube amps in the mix. Vinyl is the normal standard, and CDs usually need some help. That's why tubed CDPs are so popular (or certain DACs).

Carl.

[dtel]

Really harsh with rap, opera, B Strisand, J tesh, B Speares and so on, can't even stand to listen !

[TheEAR]

A violin played direct in the near of ya ears sound harsh , not smooth .

The Klipschorn does it .

An SG Guitar plugged into an AC30 comes smooth with much mid´s .

The Klipschorn does it .

Live music anyway what is is comes fast and dry .

The Klipschorn does it .

Who in hell needs other boooooooring speaker stuff ?

Oh so anything not horn loaded is booooooooooring! You have some listening to do,and proper gear matching too. [] In the speaker world like in politics its not all black or white,its shades of gray.

[TheEAR]

Really harsh with rap, opera, B Strisand, J tesh, B Speares and so on, can't even stand to listen !

Agreed,but then again any revealing speakers will REVEAL to you that rap=a word missing its first letter,and that letter is a C .

B St...oh please is have cold shivers...brrrr

J. Tesh...pass me a puke bucket,this is NOT music this a travesty.If Tesh is a musician I am Santa Claus.

B. Spears,now she makes the worst rap sound like flowing,delicate music to relax to!

[D-MAN]

In a nutshell, they will sound as good or as bad as the gear driving them.

That would also include the source material and recording!

DM

[Bill Cain]

How come when I'm on some other audio forum and every time Klipsch speakers are mentioned, there are always a few people that mention how "harsh" the Klipsch horns sound? I have a set of Klipsch KG5.5 and think they sound great but that might be because I don't know much different for my lack of testing other speakers. I'm looking at expanding upon my set and turning it into a 5.1 system. I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with Klipsch products, but after hearing some complaints about how the horns sound harsh, I'm now a little hesitant.

You like the sound? Great. Then, other than personal insecurity, what's the problem?

Put another way, when other people start buying my sound equipment, I'll pay more attention to their opinions. Until then, I'll buy what works for me, not some faceless bozo in a forum. I even take some of the opinions voiced HERE with a grain of salt. What works FOR ME is my only real criteria. Most of the rest is Bullshit.

[]

[TheEAR]

How come when I'm on some other audio forum and every time Klipsch speakers are mentioned, there are always a few people that mention how "harsh" the Klipsch horns sound? I have a set of Klipsch KG5.5 and think they sound great but that might be because I don't know much different for my lack of testing other speakers. I'm looking at expanding upon my set and turning it into a 5.1 system. I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with Klipsch products, but after hearing some complaints about how the horns sound harsh, I'm now a little hesitant.

You like the sound? Great. Then, other than personal insecurity, what's the problem?

Put another way, when other people start buying my sound equipment, I'll pay more attention to their opinions. Until then, I'll buy what works for me, not some faceless bozo in a forum. I even take some of the opinions voiced HERE with a grain of salt. What works FOR ME is my only real criteria. Most of the rest is Bullshit.

[]

In the end that summs it up.The buyer decides with his ears and money.Sonic satisfaction is in the ear of the beholder.

[psg]

have only heard pre-AK-4 Klipschorns with ordinary solid state, and they can sound pretty screechy when that happens.

[...]

Ear (Arthur) stated it correctly - tubes. Most Klipschorns, other Heritage, and higher quality Reference will not sound harsh so long as there are tube pres and/or tube amps in the mix. Vinyl is the normal standard, and CDs usually need some help.

I respect people's opinion on the forum, so perhaps someday some member who is driving by will stop by my place to tell me how bad my setup sounds. Recapped AA crossovers, an h/k avr HT receiver of all things, a CD player, no particular attention to interconnects... Yet I think my Klipschorns sound phenomenal! As do my audio enthousiast friends. The imaging is amazing; the speakers disappear completely. Instruments sound real. Percussions have incredible detail. Vocals are there in the room.

I don't find the Klipschorn hard to drive. Putting in an external amplifier on the pre-outs doesn't change anything to my ears.

Granted, most old pop or rock CDs are crap to listen to. Harsh and bright. But just about anything I bought in the last 10 years sounds great (mostly trio jazz, but some rock too).

It would be great if some Montrealer who was going on vacation to my neck of the woods would stop be with a fancy CD player or something and show me the error of my ways. Maybe my setup could sound even better!

[Paul]

How come when I'm on some other audio forum and every time Klipsch speakers are mentioned, there are always a few people that mention how "harsh" the Klipsch horns sound? I have a set of Klipsch KG5.5 and think they sound great but that might be because I don't know much different for my lack of testing other speakers. I'm looking at expanding upon my set and turning it into a 5.1 system. I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with Klipsch products, but after hearing some complaints about how the horns sound harsh, I'm now a little hesitant.

Most of the time when they mention thisthey have never heard,khorns/lascalas/herseys and the rest.They just dream about having a nice pair.[]

[garyrc]

Mr. Snake,

See the current Stereophile magazine for a very positive review of the La Scala II, the new version of a fully horn loaded Klipsch. Sam (the reviewer) specifically says that he did not hear any of the horn anomalies that horns are caused of.

The speakers in the new Klipschorn are identical to those in the La Scala II -- but the bass enclosures are different. The newer Klipschorns (from about 2002 to now) have the AK4 crossover with some slight EQ, and they sound a little sweeter (kinder gentler) than before. I would guess they are "voiced" a lot like the La Scala II that Stereophile reviewed, but with a lot more bass (more and smoother bass than ever, perhaps).

As Sam says, many speakers sound reined - in and constrained, but not these!

In addition to the Stereophile review, you may want to read the following thread on the Klipsch forum: La Scala II Stereophile Review.

There is good review of Klipschorns by Constantine Soo --- type his name in your main search box, and it might pop up. Some Klipsch forumers thought he didn't have the Khorns set up right, or really understand them, but it is a pretty positive review.

If the producers, engineers, and artists use speakers that are "forgiving," veil the sound, and very slightly blunt the transients (and I suspect that many speakers are designed to do this), they may allow some slightly distorted or harsh sound to get on the recording without ever knowing it is there. Klipschorns will reveal it. So will professional JBL horn speakers. Good horns with good compression drivers (like Klipsch and JBL) tend to have many fewer and more moderate "sidebars," or extraneous frequencies in addition to those in the recording, than cone or dome speakers -- the extra, but false tones can sometimes add an illusory "richness," to the sound, and can sometimes veil, soften, or blur the sound, as well as hide defects in the recording -- sort of the way a very reverberate room can mask distortion (as well as desirable aspects of the music) in the recording. Years ago, I directly compared older Klipschorns (not as good as the new or updated ones) to B & W 801 F monitors, which EMI records often used as monitors for their classical recordings. With almost all recordings, across all types of music (mostly classical and jazz), the Klipschorns sounded more real, more live, more dynamic, and were more enjoyable. This was especially true when great orchestral forces were involved (symphonies of Beethoven & Mahler). Once in a great while the B & Ws would sound a little better. But the most interesting cases were a few Rock (and one Film Soundtrack) recordings that seemed to exhibit what sounded like some problems that I used to encounter occasionally in my recording days. I don't know what these recordists were doing wrong, but sometimes it sounded like mic preamp overload (in the mixer/board) or "diaphragm crashing" in the mics themselves. The B & W minimized this -- reproduced it as a clear fault in the recording, but made it easy to ignore, if desired. The Klipschorns revealed it clearly, and it was difficult to ignore. So, if you are going to play primarily good or excellent recordings, I'd go toward Klipschorns -- if you tend to buy bad recordings (to get the music that is unavailable anywhere else) you may want more "forgiving" speakers.

On master tapes (or good copies), good CDs (30 - 50% ??), and good vinyl (about the same percentage??) I'll bet you won't find a truer sounding speaker than the new (or updated) Klipschorn.

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

Replace the K400 squawker horn with something better and cut the level to it down a bit and they don't sound harsh any more!

Al K.