maxg Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Max, you messed me up! The Yamaha MX-D1 was my dream amp, but then I got the La Scalas and a mighty amp seemed to be no longer necessary. Now you mention that you're using one. Are you driving Heritage speakers with it? I'm sure it sounds better than my Yamaha receiver. You revived my dormant fantasy, and now I'll have to start saving up again. Grrr! Sorry about that Islander - you are acutally one of the first people on this forum I have met that have heard of thisamp. OK - first off - I dont actually run Heritage with this amp - I have home built speakers that are a mere 91 dB/w/m sensitive. Evern with these I would never use more than 10% of the output of the amp - well - maybe 15% on a really wild day. Funnily enough I do think there is a KHorn owner here that has at least tried this amp - if he does not actually own it - I will try to find out more and get back to you on it. As for sounding better than your receiver - I would expect it does - a little [] There are a few out there that regard this amp as one of the very best in the world - at any money - almost entirely B&W owners of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Vol. 16 No. 1 January 1977 Amplifiers with surprisingly low power ratings can be used in most situations particularly for the highly efficient all-horn system . . . When selecting a power amplifier, factors other than power should be considered. Because of the high efficiency of KLIPSCH systems, the low power (0.1 to 1 watt) distortion ratings of the amplifier become very important. Consideration should be given also to the TIM (transient inter-modulation) distortion of the amplifier . . . D. (Don) B. Keele, Jr. Chief Engineer Klipsch and Associates, Inc. Gosh, coda, as I asked you on the previous page, I thought you were advocating full quotes and context. You once again conveniently leave out any info that goes against your claim. From the very same Dope from Hope as you quote from above, Keele mentions that reproduction of original live rock music in a typical living room can be achieved "with a modest amplifier of about 50 watts per channel." To funny!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Just teasing, Max! Congrats on having a great amp. Are you using the Yamaha passive preamp with it? By the time I can budget for one, it'll probably be updated to the D2 or D3. I'm sure it sounds WAAAY better than my receiver, but I'm pretty happy with the receiver for now. As you may know, the MX-D1 was reviewed in the April 2005 issue of Stereophile. The reviewer was impressed, but of course he found it slightly lacking when compared with his $23,000/pr reference monoblock amps. Man, there's really no end to hi-fi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 SPLs (average 110 to 115 dB with peaks 10 dB higher). That's loud. As amplifier power increases, the degree to which the speaker output reproduces the original sound, the sound quality, decreases. Agree or disagree? Or someone is suggesting you can have both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Coda, Not many I know of around here listens regularly at such extreme levels so I just don't get the point your trying to make. Well there is Jeff Mathews.......But he is definitely unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Those SPL numbers go with Parrot's quote, "with a modest amplifier of about 50 watts per channel." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 I see...... But I still really do not see the real world relevance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Choosing an amp on the basis of level requirement With triodes (as in SETs) the distortions decrease with lower output levels - especially the higher order. This makes them go well with high efficiency speakers. Some SS amp charts show their distortion reaches a minimum just before clipping... their distortion is highest (and includes the nasty kinds) at the lowest output levels. Some don't sound good with efficient speakers. So I figure that the louder you need it, the less quality of sound - a trade off. Seems to me the order of best sound with increasing level requirements will be: SET with high efficiency horns for loud listening Tube PP with med/high efficiency speakers for too loud listening SS/Tube with low/med/high efficiency speakers for too damn loud listening SS/Tube with high efficiency horns for insane accompanyment to Deaf Jeff rock drum kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 SPLs (average 110 to 115 dB with peaks 10 dB higher). That's loud. Make that an average 80 to 85dB with peaks 30dB higher...of course the source material often becomes the limiting factor for such dynamic music... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 31, 2006 Author Share Posted December 31, 2006 Just teasing, Max! Congrats on having a great amp. Are you using the Yamaha passive preamp with it? By the time I can budget for one, it'll probably be updated to the D2 or D3. I'm sure it sounds WAAAY better than my receiver, but I'm pretty happy with the receiver for now. As you may know, the MX-D1 was reviewed in the April 2005 issue of Stereophile. The reviewer was impressed, but of course he found it slightly lacking when compared with his $23,000/pr reference monoblock amps. Man, there's really no end to hi-fi! Yes - I have seen that review - havent heard the other amp (Haflter wasnt it?) so I cant comment. I am not running the Yamaha passive pre but a tube pre-amp from Klimo. Sounds nice with the amp - better imho than the passive. There was a brand new boxed ex demo MX-D1 on ebay in the UK a few weeks back - 1200 pounds buy now - about $2,300 plus shipping. Not a bad price for an amp like this. Who, 30 dB peaks - 60 dB dynamic range? Not very common - as you say the music would be a limiting factor here - before the system.Pop music on the radio has about a 10 dB dynamic range. Miost classical music fits happily into about 20 dB, Huge dramatic pieces may need 30, go crazy and call it 40, - but that is peak to peak, still a long way from your picture above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 I think it will depend on how you measure it: A, C Weighting, Transient response of the meter, etc... When I quote average SPL, I'm usually referring to A-Weighted slow, but the peaks are non-weighted and instantly fast - in other words, the absolute max. The only way to see this would be to have a high resolution way of viewing the waveform (which is easy and free with digital). Maybe I should get around to posting some plots someday. Surely not all music shares the same magnitude of dynamics, but I would expect the pursuit of high-fidelity to choose a playback system capable of the most extreme cases? For what it's worth, I find the silence in music to be incredibly more important than the audible parts (though without the audible you can't have the musical silence - but that paradox is another topic). A good silent rest in any decent piece of music is going to slap right against the noise floor. I know it's not my rockin cool side (if I even have one), but if nothing else you've got the dramatic final last note of the piece. It could be a large wild crescendo that just lingers until it vanishes, fast loud cutoff, or the nice soft ending that is just barely audible at the end. You'll have to pardon my lack of perty langugage, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. The final audible part of the decay is going to be a good 30dB below the direct signal. I'm sure it's lower, but I don't get to listen with lower noise floors very often. I can't stand it when you can hear the end of the decay getting cut off before it gets soaked into the noise floor. I also can't stand it when people press stop right in the middle of a piece either - maybe I'm just crazy and alone in my perceptions? One thing is for certain, everyone listens to music differently (not to mention all the different types). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Amp selection on the basis of silence! Actually I know what you mean, it's a nice dynamic effect to experience both low-level and high-level detail emerging from a black bottomless noise floor. It's one reason I like the Bryston 4B-ST. For lack of a better term, I will try to explain my amp listening results as falling somewhere between a range of naturally accurate to unnaturally accurate. For example, wide dynamic swings with live music are rarer to experience with an extremely black background, this effect is usually more for a controlled environment via system and well engineered recordings. Low power SETs don't have the wide dynamic swings, but on the basis of a crazy in-the-room presence, they score high on the naturally accurate scale, especially with unamplified live acoustic music, (read jazz), though the B-3 through an Alnico magnet driver is something special, too . . On the horizon, there are a couple of new higher powered triode amps that may fill in the gap for what some listeners think they're missing in dynamics. The CES show is coming up next week in Las Vegas, those who are close by might want to check out either the $126,290 Lamm ML3 Signature amp (see press release), or the Kron Audio 50-watt integrated Kronzilla SXI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 . . . Low power SETs don't have the wide dynamic swings . . . This is an amazing way to start out the new year, with an admission from Coda about his favorite topology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 I like to meet the guy with $126,000 burning a hole in his pocket for a new Lamm amplifier........I guess it's money better spent than a gold-plated Hummer with solid gold 26" LED pimp rims........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 I like to meet the guy with $126,000 burning a hole in his pocket for a new Lamm amplifier........I guess it's money better spent than a gold-plated Hummer with solid gold 26" LED pimp rims........ It wouldn't be a good idea to go here then.[] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Low power SETs don't have the wide dynamic swings... Sure they do! Look at PWK's chart - my interpretation is 3.5 SET systems exceed 115dB peaks on big heritage (the values sited are for single systems so double them for stereo; with a 3.5 like the Wrights, they go into A2 mode beyond 3.5W to peak at 8W/ch. All the chart values are with 10dB of peak headroom above average level. Elsewhere in the DFH he stats a few times that 2W is sufficient for full concert level with the big heritage and gives examples of using 10W to fill large venues (much larger than home listening environments). As Who points out, dynamic range extends to the quiet end, too. SETs do this well because they are clean and resolve the details... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 So much for the New Year........... man this stuff is even getting old on me and I used to just love these discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Happy New Year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Happy New Year to you also. You wouldn't happen to be drinking currently? [6][:#][] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 It wouldn't be a good idea to go here then.[] I haven't seen that much McIntosh home theater gear in one place since Neo posted a picture of "his" system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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