edwinr Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 I can't believe it! I was actually wrong about something. I usually run balanced Nordost Heimdall interconnects between my CEC CD Player, my Audio Research tube preamp and my Classe solid state power amp. I never bought this cable. It was given to me as a bonus when I purchased my Audio Research pre amp. Yesterday my local HI Fi dealer lent me some Gryphon balanced interconnects after I ridiculed his claim that high end cable CAN sound better. So I took his cable home and plugged it into my system. OMG! He was right! Music through the Gryphon interconnect sounded richer and had much better extension in the bass. I just cannot understand why this is so. There is no empirical reason that I am aware of that would explain what I heard. I cannot accept 'black magic' as an explanation. How on earth am I going to face my Hi-Fi dealer friend after all the ribbing and ridicule I have bestowed on him over the last ten years? [:S] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 "There is no empirical reason that I am aware of that would explain what I heard. I cannot accept 'black magic' as an explanation" Sure there is, and you don't have to accept 'black magic,' blue magic, green, or any other hue of magic as an explanation. (Some) cable companies will go to great lengths and expense to provide descriptions of their products that are intended to sound impressive and complex, particularly to those who, to absolutely no fault of their own, do not have the knowledgle or experience to sift through all of that in order to get to the core of what matters. Wire can certainly sound different. What cable companies often do not include (though some do) in those ornate and detailed descriptions are the basic elements of R, C, and L. It seems to me that you have found a cable that simply has ratios and values of those three things that are personally pleasing in terms of the sonic attributes they lend to the way your system reproduces sound. EVERY system will color the original recording in some way -- it's up to us to find the combinations of electronics, mechanics, and wire that suit our individual color preferences. It's like looking for the most comfortable chair: One can spend a fortune on a kiln-dried hardwood frame and outer cover of very expensive leather, but those ingredients do not necessarily mean that the functional aspect of the DESIGN will be successful. Like coupling capacitors, resistor types and brands, and sources, preamps, amplifiers, and speakers, it's fortunate that there's a bunch of chairs out there to choose from. There is the possibility that the most comfortable chair just may not be the most expensive one. edit: My own situation is an example: At this time, a section of my lower back is held together and supported by a system of screws and rods. I am physically unable to sit in big, overstuffed-and-plush chairs or sofas of any kind. I have to sit with my back completely straight, and find simple wooden chairs with backs that have an inward bend in the lumbar region the most comfortable. Just as we most likely don't perceive and process vibrations of the air in exactly the same way (which pulls us in one direction or another as far as choices in audio components), so are our backs and bone geometries not exactly alike. My back likes chairs that fit it well; my ears and brain just happen to enjoy the sound of low-power, singled-ended amplifiers. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Why do I find blonds sexier that brunettes? Are they better? Why do some like some cables better than others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 ahhhh jacksonbart...that's why we get along so well...I'll take the brunettes...now redheads are ANOTHER matter altogether... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 ....this is where fini, jacksonbart and I all say "now redheads are another matter." at the same time...[] Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share Posted December 9, 2006 My wife is a redhead. My friends are terrified of her. My boss is terrified of her. I'm not terrified. But I am just a little bit afraid... [:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share Posted December 9, 2006 Thanks for your thoughts, Eric. I will now have to re-evaluate my thought processes in relation to cable. How I hate doing that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 There might be some credibility in designing a cable with better impedence matching capability between two mis-matched components----one being 50.111 ohms and the other 49.8888 ohms with the cable itself reducing the VSWR by 20 db. Maybe some of you "technical" people can relate that to audio interconnects and how accurate they actually are. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 ahhhh jacksonbart...that's why we get along so well...I'll take the brunettes...now redheads are ANOTHER matter altogether... Bill OK Guys, throw your REDHEADS my way......................I like 'em all About the cables, I guess one must learn what words to use, so they don't come back to haunt you......Now you have to go back to the dealer with your tail between your legs, or...........................LIE like hell......................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Guideline Mk. II Interconnect The acclaimed Gryphon Guideline Mk II interconnect is handcrafted from 2 times 20 conductors of the purest silver continuously cast in a slow-cooling process to ensure a long-crystal structure. Following two separate layers of insulation crimp for optimum mechanical stability, the plus and minus leads are intertwined and wrapped in Teflon tape. A polyester web consisting of 60% air is then applied for reduced dielectric absorption before the copper shield and final shrink-wrapped outer sleeve. Completely handcrafted and available only in bulk lengths up to 20 meters or factory-terminated with WBT phono plugs or balanced Neutric XLR connectors, Gryphon Guideline Mk II unveils the innermost details of any recorded source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 "There is no empirical reason that I am aware of that would explain what I heard. I cannot accept 'black magic' as an explanation" Sure there is, and you don't have to accept 'black magic,' blue magic, green, or any other hue of magic as an explanation. (Some) cable companies will go to great lengths and expense to provide descriptions of their products that are intended to sound impressive and complex, particularly to those who, to absolutely no fault of their own, do not have the knowledgle or experience to sift through all of that in order to get to the core of what matters. Wire can certainly sound different. What cable companies often do not include (though some do) in those ornate and detailed descriptions are the basic elements of R, C, and L. It seems to me that you have found a cable that simply has ratios and values of those three things that are personally pleasing in terms of the sonic attributes they lend to the way your system reproduces sound. EVERY system will color the original recording in some way -- it's up to us to find the combinations of electronics, mechanics, and wire that suit our individual color preferences. It's like looking for the most comfortable chair: One can spend a fortune on a kiln-dried hardwood frame and outer cover of very expensive leather, but those ingredients do not necessarily mean that the functional aspect of the DESIGN will be successful. Like coupling capacitors, resistor types and brands, and sources, preamps, amplifiers, and speakers, it's fortunate that there's a bunch of chairs out there to choose from. There is the possibility that the most comfortable chair just may not be the most expensive one. edit: My own situation is an example: At this time, a section of my lower back is held together and supported by a system of screws and rods. I am physically unable to sit in big, overstuffed-and-plush chairs or sofas of any kind. I have to sit with my back completely straight, and find simple wooden chairs with backs that have an inward bend in the lumbar region the most comfortable. Just as we most likely don't perceive and process vibrations of the air in exactly the same way (which pulls us in one direction or another as far as choices in audio components), so are our backs and bone geometries not exactly alike. My back likes chairs that fit it well; my ears and brain just happen to enjoy the sound of low-power, singled-ended amplifiers. Erik Absolutely an excellent post to explain the why's and why nots. I personally opt for a cable that has the absolute minimum effect on the signal (at a reasonable cost). But guys like me have the ability to fine tube within the components in the audio chain to net the best results in my own system so I can opt for very transparent cables and wires. What your describing is very much the opposite or maybe not LOL!!! Just another aspect of audi that absolutely has no right or wrong answer. Just like the amp wars fire suit require as standard debating equipment. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 "There is no empirical reason that I am aware of that would explain what I heard. I cannot accept 'black magic' as an explanation" Sure there is, and you don't have to accept 'black magic,' blue magic, green, or any other hue of magic as an explanation. (Some) cable companies will go to great lengths and expense to provide descriptions of their products that are intended to sound impressive and complex, particularly to those who, to absolutely no fault of their own, do not have the knowledgle or experience to sift through all of that in order to get to the core of what matters. Wire can certainly sound different. What cable companies often do not include (though some do) in those ornate and detailed descriptions are the basic elements of R, C, and L. It seems to me that you have found a cable that simply has ratios and values of those three things that are personally pleasing in terms of the sonic attributes they lend to the way your system reproduces sound. EVERY system will color the original recording in some way -- it's up to us to find the combinations of electronics, mechanics, and wire that suit our individual color preferences. It's like looking for the most comfortable chair: One can spend a fortune on a kiln-dried hardwood frame and outer cover of very expensive leather, but those ingredients do not necessarily mean that the functional aspect of the DESIGN will be successful. Like coupling capacitors, resistor types and brands, and sources, preamps, amplifiers, and speakers, it's fortunate that there's a bunch of chairs out there to choose from. There is the possibility that the most comfortable chair just may not be the most expensive one. edit: My own situation is an example: At this time, a section of my lower back is held together and supported by a system of screws and rods. I am physically unable to sit in big, overstuffed-and-plush chairs or sofas of any kind. I have to sit with my back completely straight, and find simple wooden chairs with backs that have an inward bend in the lumbar region the most comfortable. Just as we most likely don't perceive and process vibrations of the air in exactly the same way (which pulls us in one direction or another as far as choices in audio components), so are our backs and bone geometries not exactly alike. My back likes chairs that fit it well; my ears and brain just happen to enjoy the sound of low-power, singled-ended amplifiers. Erik Absolutely an excellent post to explain the why and why not. I personally opt for a cable that has the absolute minimum effect on the signal (at a reasonable cost). But guys like me have the ability to fine tube within the components in the audio chain to net the best results in my own system so I can opt for very transparent cables and wires. What your describing is very much the opposite or maybe not LOL!!! Just another aspect of audio that absolutely has no right or wrong answer. Just like the amp wars fire suit require as standard debating equipment. Craig By the way agreeing with Erik is getting to be to common for me to endure[] I need some sleeping pills LOL!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 "What your describing is very much the opposite or maybe not LOL!!! " I think that's true. It's very much the same because those three elements are an integral part of the physics of electronics. What you are talking about is making adjustments of those within the circuit itself -- as the choreographer of an electronic dance in the way those three participants interact and relate to one another -- as a way of making either large or subtle sonic differences. Edwin: You already did readjust your thinking on those cables. You like the way they sound in your system, and that's the only thing that matters. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Running balanced through out should be 6db quieter. As far as wire type thats a different story.....I like barbed wire. The imageing is sharper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Running balanced through out should be 6db quieter. As far as wire type thats a different story.....I like barbed wire. The imageing is sharper. This is what I learned through my research.... there's about a 6db gain with the use of balanced.... which would also be described as maron has put it. As far as the 3 key ingredients and the physics of wire,.... yea right,...... Mark you hit the nail on the head IMHO. By the way, that's a nice tie you have there MD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 edwinr I also have found that cable, under the right condtions, cables can change the sound of a system. I have a few thousand dollars of various types of cables that I have come across cheap over the years, and found that when used with higher end equipment, the sound can be influnced by the cabling. But be advised. If your going to test cable. You should always remove and reinstall what you have now first to see if that sounds different. Sometimes oxidation forms and is knocked off during cable replacements, and introduces improvements beyond what can be attributed to the new cable itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share Posted December 9, 2006 This cable thing bothers me. I had formed a view some years ago, and it's difficult for me to shift my thinking to accept a new paradigm. I still have my Nordost cable. I have attached a pic of the rear of my CD player and power amplifier. The Gryphon is connected with the Nordost lying beside it. My system, I guess, is of fairly high resolution and I can very easily distinguish recording venues and mixes and I can hear background noise in well recorded CD's. So hearing some difference in sound when I change cables is not beyond the realms of possibility. Switching cables between the Gryphon and the Nordost is quite an education. Obviously you wouldn't get the differences in sound in another system - what I am experiencing would be very system dependant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share Posted December 9, 2006 The back of my power amp with the Gryphon connected... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share Posted December 9, 2006 The thing is... why would an interconnect make so much difference in sound quality when the internal wiring of an electronic component is probably of inferior quality? I could understand it if the electrical component's internal wiring, the interconnect and the speaker cables were all changed for cables of better quality. That makes sense to me... [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Edwin - I used to ask myself why an IC or wire would matter when I know full well that there are many weaker points in the chain, from component internals to the speaker drivers themselves. But those cables and ICs DO change the sonics of a high resolution system, no doubt about it, in my system and my ears. I never used to place much faith in such phenomena - but I have changed my mind on this subject over the last few years. This is especially true since I began upgrading the caps in the gear and crossovers. The better the resolution of the system, the more likely one will experience the nuances that cable changes provide. Trouble is, this IS very system dependent, and "ear/taste" dependent. There is no "book" or even a consensus answer to this.....it's trial and error. I would sample more cables than I have, but I am awaiting the building of my new Belle Klipsch crossovers before I worry much about sampling these more. Paying the prices on some of this high end stuff to find out I am disappointed has me a bit restricted as well, since I prefer to hear some results or have some basis in evidence that they are "desireable" before committing to the product. That's impossible to do with cables because it IS so system dependent. Wires and caps can make ya go crazy...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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