I Was Wrong About Cable

[TBrennan]

"Maybe this whole double blind testing is worthless. For amps, speakers or cables. What does it prove?"

Well Edwin it might show whether or not you're deluding yourself. Might be a good thing to know. Having deluded myself with audio, having heard what I wanted to hear rather than what was really happening, I've no doubt of the ability of others to do the same. And the realization that I can delude myself was of value in and of itself.

Perhaps many audiophiles reject the idea of DB testing because they're afraid to put their hearing abilities to the test?

In any event I've stated my case, one may consider it or not. Best then to do like Craig and let it go while things are civil.

[NOSValves]

Here's another way to think of the problems with AB type testing. In the picture the two squares A and B are different colors (trust me). Not by much, but by enough that if you are careful looking at them together you can see the difference. Now, if I flashed ONE at a time on a screen in front of you, A and then B, would you see the difference? Maybe, maybe not. But, if you wanted to paint your car, and it was down to those two colors, you could study them side by side and make up your mind which you liked better, A or B. Unfortunately, we can look at A and B together to get contrast, but we can't hear A and B together to get contrast. Each change from A to B is a "reset" to the ears. But over time, one might emerge as a preference.

Very good example. I will even take it further. If you choose B without actually seeing it with the curves, lines and basic shape of YOUR car in the end A may just look better to you on the car.........

If you listen to a ABx test and like A better then B and then take A home insert it your system with your room and you all comfy in your own enviorment you may have liked B better??

ABx testing just proves one thing sounds different then the other and then that isn't 100% fool proof.

[edwinr]

That's a good post, Mark. I really do like to directly compare products.

LOL! I was just thinking... If I choose my wife by virtue of a double blind test I'd be in dire straights! []

[edwinr]

Perhaps many audiophiles reject the idea of DB testing because they're afraid to put their hearing abilities to the test?

Never a truer word said, Tom. If I'm honest with myself, I buy my hi-fi with looks and feel number 1, with actual sound quality running a close second.

[J.4knee]

LOL! I was just thinking... If I choose my wife by virtue of a double blind test I'd be in dire straights! []

hmm..... I dunno....... I could think of a lot of ways that would certainly make the testing a lot of fun![]

[ssh]

I've been in this conversation with some on each side of the opinion. I've concluded that some equipment shows more marked differences in what is "better" with wire changes than others. I have a receiver (that will match most), that shows little "improvement" in wire changes that are signifigantly (what I perceive as) "better" using my JFL 2A3 monoblocks. The difference is not as great using my 299A, or my Bogen as an amp. There is an audible "improvement" with the JFL using an expensive interconnect (piece of wire).

SSH

[johnyholiday]

DIY cables in edwinr's future?...............................YEP~~! , 9000 winds VS 9200 winds on a humbucker still buggs johny from time to time

[gonzp]

I too would rather have transparency in cables. I am running the VRD, JM BBXtreme combo and I am wondering what Interconnect and source cables Mark and Craig would recommend for transparency?

[Me Loves Khorns]

It has been mentioned that it is important to have cables that are shielded well.

How do you know if they are?

Any good reasonably priced ones out there?

Paul

[Colin]

I did blind, NOT double blind testing (since I knew which interconnecting patch cords I was swapping), with a non-musical girlfriend and she was able to spot the expensive gold cable over the less expensive silver ones with 70s vintage, single transformer Harmon Kardon 330B receiver powering refurbished Altec-Lansing Model One cone speakers.

[kaiser SET say]

Colin, just wind her back up , she will be musical again[][]

[Gilbert]

Gilbert:

"As far as the 3 key ingredients and the physics of wire,.... yea right,......"

It is exactly right. If not, please explain why very long lengths of interconnect are not recommended for 'passive' preamplifiers or active preamps with high output impedances. Why are some cable dielectric materials favored over others? Why do some manufacturers recommend that larger AWGs (aka bigger conductors) should be used for longer runs of speaker cable? I've read books on audio and speaker design by very knowledgable authors where in one case it was suggested that if one happens to have longer than necessary cables from amps to speaker (as in several feet), that it isn't prudent to coil the amount of extra wire into a circular shape. Will you tell me what is formed when one coils (hint, hint) a piece of wire? What is another name for a 50 foot length of coax between a passive preamp and amplifier? Why do you think there is this constant debate over power?

It ALL has to do with physics, Gilbert; and in the case of electronics, the three main elements that constantly come into play, even with something as seemingly benign as an interconnect, are -- if you are not familiar with R,C, and L -- R(resistance), C(capacitance), and L(inductance). Another critical element is IMPEDANCE.

Anyone with a a basic understanding electronics theory will tell you the same thing.

Erik

The extent of my electronics career was limited to a 3 yr stint testing PCB's at the Texas A&M cycletron. I worked in the dungeons, it was nasty job, but it paid fair enough for a college boy. But please, let me take back response, and rephrase it to:

DUH! NO SHEEATE BUDDY []

[Parrot]

Gilbert,

What did you do to Erik to cause him to be so nasty to you?

[NOSValves]

I too would rather have transparency in cables. I am running the VRD, JM BBXtreme combo and I am wondering what Interconnect and source cables Mark and Craig would recommend for transparency?

Gonzp,

I posted links to two sites on this website about a year or so ago. Evidently Mark seen one of them.

For basic bare bones but very functional cables for real cheap www.bluejeanscables.com if you opt for these do not get the optional braiding its a real joke and is a real pain too work with. They simply loose fit both interconnects in the cheesy braiding and it makes it a real PITA to get them plugged into anything and they WILL not work with mono blocks at all unless the amps are side by side nearly touching each other. The braiding has no effect on the cables performance.

For really high end looking cables with awesome Vampire termination and the same Belden type wire as above under the wonderful protection braiding. I like the more flexible 1505 series http://zebracables.com/1505.html especially going into the back of a Blueberry.

http://www.zebracables.com/ you were listening to them at AKfest 2006 in my room last year. These are serious quality for a cheap price $44 for a 3 ft pair. His speaker wire is also top notch and looks like a million bucks.

Buy yourself some nice cables for X-mas!!

Craig

[meagain]

What about Outlaw Audio? I hear people are impressed. IDK.

Craig - I saved those suggestions from a prior convo. In your super quiet setup.... You are using the Zebra - right?

[smilin]

What about Outlaw Audio? I hear people are impressed. IDK.

Craig - I saved those suggestions from a prior convo. In your super quiet setup.... You are using the Zebra - right?

Lisa, did you ever try the cables I gave you?,,and yes, I have your VRD boxes at my office[+o(]

CABLE DEFINATLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE IN A REVEALING SYSTEM[]

[meagain]

Smilin - I sent you a PM about that. Did you check it? Long story, but I hope to check them out this weekend. Then we have to get square on them. I have to move things around, etc. first.

Are you going to KlipschFest BTW?

[gonzp]

I too would rather have transparency in cables. I am running the VRD, JM BBXtreme combo and I am wondering what Interconnect and source cables Mark and Craig would recommend for transparency?

Gonzp,

I posted links to two sites on this website about a year or so ago. Evidently Mark seen one of them.

For basic bare bones but very functional cables for real cheap www.bluejeanscables.com if you opt for these do not get the optional braiding its a real joke and is a real pain too work with. They simply loose fit both interconnects in the cheesy braiding and it makes it a real PITA to get them plugged into anything and they WILL not work with mono blocks at all unless the amps are side by side nearly touching each other. The braiding has no effect on the cables performance.

For really high end looking cables with awesome Vampire termination and the same Belden type wire as above under the wonderful protection braiding. I like the more flexible 1505 series http://zebracables.com/1505.html especially going into the back of a Blueberry.

http://www.zebracables.com/ you were listening to them at AKfest 2006 in my room last year. These are serious quality for a cheap price $44 for a 3 ft pair. His speaker wire is also top notch and looks like a million bucks.

Buy yourself some nice cables for X-mas!!

Craig

Thanks Craig. I was sure that you were using the Zebra at the fest last year. I picked up a 10 foot pair of Zebra speaker cables from Dave G. and they are damn nice looking cables. After much thought I think I will order some Zebra interconnects. Hell they will match the speaker cables too!![Y]

[NOSValves]

I recommend them because I get a huge kick back... like $45 on the 3' pair that cost $44 retail. I haven't figured out how they do that one...... then I make my own []

Of course I use them in my entire system. I have a mix of Zerbra and Blue Jeans. I have tried them both and for the extra bucks I feel the fancy finish work on the Zebra's is worth the extra $15 on a 3' pair. From a Sonic stand point I would say they are equal. But FOR ME I WANT A TRANSPARENT CABLE AS POSSIBLE. Again milleage varies and is entirely up to the ear of the listener like all things audio. No absolute bests exist.

Yes the first few lines are a joke and meant that way. Please take them as such.

[Lascaladan]

You do not need to have a background in electronics, or even an understanding of it. However, you do need a good set of ears, and, a system you are familiar with, in an environment that is "controlled". The differences are there. If we hear these differences, appreciate these differences and, can afford them, why not? Power cables as well make as big a difference. Why? I do not care. If I hear it and appreciate it and can afford it, so be it.