Beta VCR's

[oogins]

We still have a Sony Beta VCR from 1985. I found it in our storage room along with a box of tapes. So just for the hell of it, I hooked it up to our TV and I was amazed. Even after all these years, the picture was incredibly sharp. It looked better than most new VCR's I've seen today.

I've talked to several people about this and they all said that Beta VCRs were superior to VHS. After hearing that, I'm starting to realize that this is true. After all, they had a great picture and the tapes were smaller.

So I'm just wondering, if Beta VCR's were so technologically superior, why did they go under?

[WMcD]

I think the first and predominant problem was the price sensitivity of the American buyer. My recall is that Sony Beta Max players were price about 10% to 20% higher than the VHS units.

It may have been that Sony believed the superior picture would seal the deal. But not so.

Remember, most buyers are not technophiles who put a lot of import to quality. On the other hand, Klipsch buyers may well be of a mind-set to appreciate greater quality at slight increased cost. Therefore this audience here, yourself included, would be the least likely to understand the average buyer's mind set.

In those days, VHS and Beta were both working magic. It may well have seemed like equal magic.

The second problem may have been a thought in the consumer's mind that they were better off going with the most "popular" standard being used by most manufacturers.

The Beta Max was only sold by Sony. So if you went into a store for a demo, there was, say, one Sony unit and three VHS units by three other manufacturers. Consumers may well have gotten a thought that the favored technology was VHS based on numbers of units on display. Beta may have seemed an orphan in the making.

Beta versus VHS is often thrown out as the prime example of the battle of the standards. Essentially, as in political voting, people tended to vote for who they predict will be a winner and not who deserves to be a winner. Popular mediocrete wins every time.

- - - - - -

I'd like to point out that there had been "advances" in many areas of electronic entertainment following World War II. Before then, AM radio, vacuum tubes, and 78 rpm records held sway.

It is a pleasant notion that there was a systematic march forward in technology without experimentation in the marketplace regarding "standards." The survival of the triumphant seems like a sure thing in retrospect. But not so in any beginning.

My argument is that the consumer had been though the "standards" wringer a few times before. Beta versus VHS was not the first.

Hence they were warry. At least they'd bought expensive equipment which became obsolete. "Come close little children while Uncle Gil tells you the true story of the horrors of history." =8^o.

FM broadcasting had a limited following at the beginning in any case. Receivers were expensive and broadcasters few. Who knew if it would flourish or worth the expense. Like HDTV today.

Stereo, two channel, was appreciated. One scheme for two channel broadcasting used an AM station for one channel and an FM station for the other. Another expense. Multiplex FM eventually was approved by the FCC and held sway. Junk that old stuff.

One scheme for two channel recording on "records" used two pickups to track two sets of grooves. The thought that one groove could provide two channel playback may have seemed too complicated in contrast. Yet this latter survived.

Then there was 33 rpm long play records versus 45 rpm singles with the big hole. A good deal was to buy a record player which played both. And also the old 78s.

Black and white TV worked well enough. Then there was color TV. Receivers were expensive. The color quality was poor at first and there were few broadcasts. And a better antenna was needed to increase the signal to noise ratio. Color broadcast were only being done in major meto areas.

Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color was good because the cartoons didn't show up the problems. Most must have thought there was no compelling need to buy until technology settled down. Maybe there would be a better scheme.

Audio tape presented a nice alternative to "records". No clicks and pops. Consumer reel to reel tape running at 7.5 inches per second was terrific but not up to the mechanical ability of consumers. Bill Lear came out with 8 track tape cartridges running at half that speed. Suitable for use in cars. The Phillips cassettes, running at half the speed of 8 track were originally used for dictation and then were adapted for music audio, with the help of Dolby noise reduction. Cassettes lived longer in the market. But who could tell? Note this was a reduction in sampling rate in a way.

Then in audio there was Quad sound. Four channels which was a forethought to Home Theater. This never sold in a big way. Some early buyers lost a lot of money. But the average buyer must have been aware that the "new thing" was just an expensive experiment.

Anyway, the Beta versus VHS occurred in the aftermath of the above. It was not the first time around for consumers.

Audio CD was coming out about the same time. For all the technical promise, the consumer was seeing that the players were expensive, titles were few, and perhaps one's collection of vinyl would have to be replaced eventually.

CD's were a good bet, naturally. Phillips and Sony workd on the standard. Happily no one tried to come out with a competing standard.

Was that good? Maybe not. It is interesting to contemplate that some manufacturing group may have used a higher sampling rate or longer word length; like we see proposed today.

Something to think about. Perhaps others on the forum can enlighten us on alternatives.

Gil

This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 12-01-2001 at 02:24 AM

[rowooo]

Great read William! But no mention of the laser disc/dvd scandal?

[Mighty Favog]

Ahhh..the old days..

When I was in retail at a locally respected store that sold audio/video equipment it was a very backwards expierience. We sold one of the first Sony Beta-HiFi units available to the public (the SL-7200) for about $1,000. Neadless to say that the year and a half I was there we only sold two and one of those was bought by an employee.

Managment decided to drop the upper line units for the more 'popularly priced' lines. This infuriated the customers, but the profit margin was huge. They said they felt like they were shopping at K-Mart, etc.

About three years later I was running the Firearms Debt. in Sporting Goods in the same store. Same thing happened. Everyone wanted to us to carry and stock everything that Colt made (Pythons, Government Models, AR-15 A2, etc.). The only thing that happened there was someone's son who just got out of Boot Camp wanting to show Mommy and Daddy that they can field strip an AR (believe me, it ain't tough). Eventually the same thing happened there as well, "customers" were only interested in when it was going on sale. Not "If" or "How much does it go on sale for?" but "WHEN will it go on sale?!" About a year of that went on before the expensive units were also dropped in favor of lines such as (choke) Rossi, Taurus and Norinco. I was embarased to sell that crap.

In closing, people want to FEEL like more posh consumers by shopping in a store that has nice stuff but when it comes to actually buying the upper lines...most of them put their wallets in a vise.

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Tom

KLF-20 Mahogany (Cornell Hotwired)

McIntosh C33 Preamp

McIntosh MVP-841 CD/DVD

Rotel RB-1080 Amp

Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge

Ortofon VMS-30 mkII Cartridge

Stanton 999SS Cartridge

Yamaha K-1020 Cassette

dbx 1231 EQ

H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer

Monster Interlink 400mk II

Monster Interlink 300mk II

Monster Video 2 (DVD to TV)

Studio Tech U-48RW Cabinet

Monster Power HTS-5000 Power Conditioner/Surge Protector

MIT Terminator 2 Bi-Wire Speaker cables (and I do mean CABLES)

Vibrapods

Enough empty boxes for a fire hazard!

This message has been edited by tblasing on 12-03-2001 at 02:00 PM

[SteveLee]

I think there was also an issue with availability of "software". In the early days of video sales and rentals, there were far more titles available in VHS than Beta. So, VHS was the leader out of the gate, and eventually became the "standard".

By the way, Beta is still used in the broadcast industry for standard definition NTSC TV. That is, much of the video shot for broadcast is recorded on Beta. I suppose that will give way to HD recording once analog TV broadcasts are phased out ....

This message has been edited by SteveLee on 12-01-2001 at 10:58 PM

[justin_tx_16]

quote:

---

Originally posted by SteveLee:

By the way, Beta is still used in the broadcast industry for standard definition NTSC TV. That is, much of the video shot for broadcast is recorded on Beta. I suppose that will give way to HD recording once analog TV broadcasts are phased out ....

---

well, bad news for Beta... My dad's video production company, Scott Video Productions, has 3 betacam cameras that soon will be a waste of about $120,000. See, they are getting rid of Betacam for a newer digital one. It is going to be a switch so that teh original can be DVD type quality and so that digital editing will not require the tape to be played back but to be downloaded in a way to teh Avid or editing suite of choice (AVID RULES!). Infact, my dad has gotton a new all digital camera like the old beta's and it is amazing how much lighter it is, and the picture and sound quality are better. but most important to me who has to, on occassion, be a grip for my dad, is that it is like half the size, batteries last longer and it weighs such less.

yeah, beta is better than VHS, but laser discs were too... LoL!

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-justin

I am an amateur, if it is professional;

ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665

Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH

RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150

[cc1091]

I purchased a Sony Betamax Hi-Fi in 1987. Recently I purchased the top of the line Sony HiFI VHS player. I was disappointed that the latest Sony VHS machine was not even an S-VHS recorder. The picture sucks compared to what I remember from my Betamax (now about five years in the grave).

About the BETA vs VHS argument:

I remeber it well. VHS had at least two hours more recording time per tape. That is what initially held sway with the consumer. Most Televisions did not have great pictures (compared to today's TVs), so the picture clarity issue was not a great problem. The VHS format was purchased from Sony by JVC (Sony sold it because it felt the Beta was a better format). JVC further developed it and let other companies license the technology for free (or virtually so). On the other hand, Sony charged big bucks to license the BETA technology.

Anyhoo..these factors resulted in a number of home consumers with VHS recorders. That's where the rental store factor kicks in. Many stores that were around in the beginning offered both Beta and VHS tapes for rentals. Then when they found that they were renting many more VHS tapes than Beta, the Beta side of the buisness was phased out. The result was that even more VHS machines were sold because you could't rent tapes for Beta. After a while, only Sony dealers sold Beta machines (even Best Buy shunned the Betamax while still selling other Sony products). Finally Sony started offering VHS and Beta players, and then phased out the Beta entirely.

The Hi-8 format uses some of the Beta technology I'm told.

I see that DVD recorders are on the market now.

[justin_tx_16]

they will still make betamax tapes for a while but no more camera's. the new digibeta (name???) players will be backwards compatible. but this does nothing for most old beta watchers unless they want to pay about 500 bucks for a player LoL or more really... LoL!

------------------

-justin

I am an amateur, if it is professional;

ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665

Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH

RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150

[WMcD]

Thanks for the kind remarks. I like to write. "That's not writing, that's typing."

I really didn't pay attention to the video disk versus DVD thing because I didn't have the money to invest at the time.

Steve has a good point which I didn't think about. Consider the interaction of software and hardware. Steve's point.

My recall is that at the beginning, there was a pretty even count of VHS and Beta tapes. After a while, there were more VHS.

This is again a matter of how sensitive and unstable the market is. If the VHS player is 10% cheaper, and there are 10% more titles, a trend is set up. No one looks at picture quality.

Gil

[Colin]

Books were written analyzing Sony's mistake with Beta, especially when it looked like IBM was making the same mistake with what seemed to be a proprietary operating system and ROM on the PC. When the CD was introduced, Sony was carefully to virtually give away the format as a new standard. With prices on SACD players crashing and true six-channel DVD-A audio not yet established, it is still possible for a format war between SACD and DVD-A to develop

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Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing!

[PhilH]

Sony and JVC worked on their two formats independent of each other. Although JVC started experimenting with a home video taping unit in the 1950's, Sony was first to hit the market with their "U-Matic". In the early days of Beta vs. VHS, before either one was dominant...RCA became the deciding factor. VHS, at the time, was a 4 hour recording format. RCA went to JVC (which was an old offshoot of RCA in the 1930's due to antitrust legislation...Japan "Victor" Corporation)and told them that if JVC made VHS to record up to six hours, RCA would jump on their "bandwagon" and debut their line in the VHS format. JVC, knowing the dominance of the RCA name in the huge US market at the time was no dummy...out came a 6 hour VHS deck. RCA then introduced their line of VHS machines and the US market jumped all over them, making VHS the dominant format.

Beta, even with it's faster write speed leading to a superior picture and it's first on the market HiFi Stereo sound could not keep up with the American public's love and trust of the RCA name at the time. A marketing example in its best form..

PhilH

[dougdrake2]

Who is RCA? Isn't that the brand I see for sale at Radio Shack ? Funny how times change...

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My System

[Lone Palm]

JVC developed VHS. JVC is the Victor Company Of Japan. They own most of the movie studios. So naturally the chosen format was VHS even though it is inferior. I have a 1979 Zenith Beta video rig that I would love to get repaired. It has a broadcast quality image. The only trouble is I can't find anybody to work on this dinosaur.

[Olaf]

I read an article once that stated the vcr was invented by two Americans. They couldn't get grants for R&D so they sold the technology to Japan.

Anyboby else hear or read about this?

Once thing I noticed about my VCRs. I bought a Panasonic back in '87 and used it really hard for years. I then bought a new Panasonic about 3 years ago which was supposed to be one of their best. I compared the old one to the new one and the old was much better . I do believe quality has degraded over the years.

[Guest BobG]

I believe the folks at Ampex were the developers of the first functioning video tape system you mention. They did indeed sell the rights as they found no takers in the US.

[boomer9911]

Beta is still worth it's weight in gold so to speak. I have seen some nice units fetch a "few" bucks when most people pass them up and go why? I have a friend that has had a Sony Beta for eons, works like a charm.

[cc1091]

Phil H and Lone Palm -

I bow to your video tape history knowledge. Obviously I was reading the Reader's Digest version edited by Sony.