J M O N Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 B&W was always a brand I would drool over back in the day. From the Matrix 801 to the incredible Matrix 800. They always seemed to be unreachable. As used speakers became more readily available and money became less of a barrier, I semi-seriously considered some used M801s years ago. However, the more I listened to my Klipsch (Cornwalls back then) the less impressive the B&Ws sounded. Not that they didn't sound good, but at least I was no longer "wowed" by them since the Klipsch had some "wow" of their own. I eventually was able to improve the electronics driving the Klipsch and sort of lost the desire for the B&Ws. Now the Matrix 800s, that is one speaker I would like to hear again as it has been many years. Who knows, I might just get tempted if there was still some "wow" there -- not getting rid of the K-horns though. There is magic in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Labbetuss Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 In my personal opinion the B&W speakers are very good speakers, but we all hva our individual opinions and preferences - and thank god for that! Though, B&W speakers have a lot more neutral, smooth and laidback signature, and this is just the opposite of the klipsch sound - which can blow you away with their superb dynamics and rough upper highs. When you watch a dvd concert with klipsch speakers, you really feel that you are present at the concert. With B&W speakers you get the feeling that you're at home enjoying a concert you couldn't attend to. Not said in a negative way, but they have very different sound philosophies. Concerning Rotel and B&W 800 series, Rotel is partially owned the same way as Classê is partially owned by B&W, and these audiophile brands coroporate together. The difference is that Rotel electronics are designed for B&W speakers up to the 800 series and the Classe electronics are designed to complement B&W 800/Nautilus series and visa versa. So the Rotel amps that you've heard probably aren't designed to complement the 800/Nautilus series from B&W (digital amps?) - though i think they would do very nicely! Especially the new RB-1091 monoblocks. I know a person with full 5.2 setup of B&W 802D setup, and he thinks that the RB-1092 is the best amp that he has tried on these speakers so far - especially among all the digital amps. He works as a test-journalist and has tried a great amount of amps, for ex. McIntosh 1200W monoblocks, the biggest Nagra tube monoblocks - and all this in his own enviroment, so i guess it only explains that the individual preferences end test surroundings variate. I wouldn't mind a B&W 800 series setup, but i think i would rather have bought a Klipsch Signature Home Theater System, which is said is on the way - after what i've heard at least! :-D Let's hope it's not too far away though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 JMON look here!!! unfortunately wrong cost. http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/rd.pl?cool&&glb&&&&&http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1175384175 mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I have been rather disappointed with the 802D's each time I have heard them - in comparison to the previous model the 802N. Frankly - I would take an 802N in a heartbeat but the D's you can keep. I know they are supposed to be better - but my ears just dont get it. That's funny. I have never had the urge to upgrade from the N series, mostly because a $6,000 bump for tweeters, which may or may not make a difference, is excessive. Here is what I think is so funny. On the B&W forum, the latest product and whatever the salesman says is the ticket is the rule. Every manufacturer is so lucky because their products just keep gettign better and they never take a step backwards! How lucky is that, especially for the marketing folks. I've got a bunch of crappy equipment from about 2000 to 2003. I really need to update 'cuz teh new stuff is always much better. Here a few funny topics there. I am refurbishing crossovers on an older pair of B&W's and wanted to know what kind of caps B&W uses now. I was informed that caps can change the speakers sound and that I really should keep my 22 year old caps. Next one, just today someone mentioned that they use a Conrad Johnson preamp with a Krell amp and it works great because the Conrad tames the Krell's highs. He was warned that you shopuld never mix BRANDS between preamps and power amps. Not even tubes and SS, but BRANDS!! This is clearly fear of what they do not understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turntable3 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 For 5 years I owned a pair of B&W 891 Matrix Series 3 which had been hooked to a Chord SPM1600 amp (similar to setups used at Abbey Road and other studios) and to a Mark Levinson 431. I had to raise up volume to hear fine details. At low levels effortless listening was not possible. At a dealer I heard the new 802D and 803D. The sound of the 802D was dull and the sound of the 803D was dominated by the midrange. It was dissapointing. I sold the 801s and jumped over to La Scala 1 in 2006. Since that time I can hear effortless even at low levels any detail and dynamic changes in the musical performance. This was the best decision I ever made concerning audio. Since june 2006 I own the Scalas. Believe me, since that time I did not think any more about tweeks or cable-changes or buying new equipment. Now I can hear music with ease and relaxation. This is just my personal experience. Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Choi Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 In regards to mixing brands...it's funny but when driving Krell power amp with tube preamp, one must be careful. When the setup works, it works well but when the tube preamp sends any stray DC into Krell power amp, it blows... I had to find out hard way once when I used to use Sonic Frontiers Line 3 tube preamps (with too many tubes per side to count...) and blew up a Krell amp due to SF feeding DC from one of the tubes that went south on me. The Krell amps (FPB series anyway) have an internal jumper that probably adds filter cap in the input signal path for you to use a tube preamp. I tried to cut the corner in striving for the ultimate transparency and had to pay. Not being able to enjoy music in low level was one of the main reasons why I got rid of the N802s few years back. The N800s do better at low level but no way close to the Khorns when it comes to retriving the ambient information in the recordings especially at the low level. Jack, you must have reached your Audio Contemplative State...where I have been trying climb up to for so many years. It would be nice to be happy with my equipment some day and concentrate on music for a change. I heard a report on NPR (radio program for those who live outside of NA) this monring about the two most significan violin players in history and paid tribute to violinists Jascha Heifetz and Fritz Kreisler. I was emabrassed to think I have not heard of Kreisler and have only one CD of Heifetz... I want to get to a state where I can talk about these two virtuosos more than the latest speakers with diamond tweeters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Ki - you make a good point that the end product of this maddness should be the enjoyment of music, not the enjoyment of equipment (although I realize that the two are, to an extent, inherently linked). A few years ago when I decided that I should upgrade from my 30 year old McIntosh set up, I caught a fever that I have not been able to fully shake. With each new piece of equipment, my focus immediately turned to the next upgrade and I don't think I took the time to relax and enjoy the music as much as I should. I recently purchased a McIntosh cd player and have realized that I'm not restricted to just vinyl as I had previously convinced myself. Its nice now to be able to go to the local shop and buy a cd - so many titles readily accessible - no more visiting the used record shop and hoping someone had brought in something that week that was in good condition. Back on topic - I still think in the right room with the right equipment, the 802ds can sound pretty nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 In regards to mixing brands...it's funny but when driving Krell power amp with tube preamp, one must be careful. When the setup works, it works well but when the tube preamp sends any stray DC into Krell power amp, it blows... I had to find out hard way once when I used to use Sonic Frontiers Line 3 tube preamps (with too many tubes per side to count...) and blew up a Krell amp due to SF feeding DC from one of the tubes that went south on me. The Krell amps (FPB series anyway) have an internal jumper that probably adds filter cap in the input signal path for you to use a tube preamp. I tried to cut the corner in striving for the ultimate transparency and had to pay. Not being able to enjoy music in low level was one of the main reasons why I got rid of the N802s few years back. The N800s do better at low level but no way close to the Khorns when it comes to retriving the ambient information in the recordings especially at the low level. Jack, you must have reached your Audio Contemplative State...where I have been trying climb up to for so many years. It would be nice to be happy with my equipment some day and concentrate on music for a change. I heard a report on NPR (radio program for those who live outside of NA) this monring about the two most significan violin players in history and paid tribute to violinists Jascha Heifetz and Fritz Kreisler. I was emabrassed to think I have not heard of Kreisler and have only one CD of Heifetz... I want to get to a state where I can talk about these two virtuosos more than the latest speakers with diamond tweeters... I do almost all of my listening at about 75 db or so and do not find a loss of detail. You have both speakers, so you can do a direct comparison, but I have found the B&W's to retreive way more info than my K Horns ever did. One way that I can tell is that I had a piece of equipment in my audio chain that sounded just great with the K Horns and my Belles. When I hooked that same piece of equipment to my B&W's, I realized that I had to get rid of it because I could hear so much hiss and noise that I had never heard before. I found this very interesting because the K Horns are about 12 db more efficient. Maybe it was the K77 tweeters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turntable3 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 @tigerwoodKhorns: I had a reverse experience. Connecting the old Marantz with the Scalas 4230 there was only hum............. The same Marantz hooked to the B&W 801 M/S3: no hum - only audible when cranked up to the max without signal Result: Marantz recently sold. Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I like both my Nautilus 804's and my LaScalla's but I'd never try to compare either against each other because they are two entirely different animals! Of course the Klipsch are going to have better low level detail because they are horn loaded 104db efficient speakers compared to direct rediating cone drivers at 90db rating! Just like any good pair of JBL's they don't start hitting their stride until you have crossed the mason dixon line on your volume control[6] It was best described as the Klipsch sound more like your at a live venue and the B&W's sound like really good reproduction! One is warm and the other is in your face. I prefer live recording on Klipsch and studio work on my B&W's but I can appreciate both of these brands of speakers on their own individual merits and as they say veriety is the spice of life[] In defense of my B&W's I will say the one thing that comes out of everyone's mouth that listens to the 804's is hey those things are really crisp, quiet and clean and on the other hand those who listen to the Klipsch say I feel like I'm right at this live venue. I'm sure most on this forum know and can second that for any of the Klipsch Heritage line and some that I'm less familier with[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 2, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 2, 2007 Ki, Love your set up. When you listen to your K horns to you do much re-arranging of the other speakers? Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Choi Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Travis: The set up isn't ideal but do work without moving the Quads out of the way of Khorns. The Khorns have Trachorns in the center and Beyma tweeters in the inside letting me place the Quads to be placed about two feet ahead of the Khorns near the side walls and still sound good. Also having to sit pretty close to the Khorns - due to not being able to toe them out in almost near field mode - helps as well. The Quads have figure 8 radiating pattern, and they would let me place them close to the side walls and still give me haunting imaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Travis: The set up isn't ideal but do work without moving the Quads out of the way of Khorns. The Khorns have Trachorns in the center and Beyma tweeters in the inside letting me place the Quads to be placed about two feet ahead of the Khorns near the side walls and still sound good. Also having to sit pretty close to the Khorns - due to not being able to toe them out in almost near field mode - helps as well. The Quads have figure 8 radiating pattern, and they would let me place them close to the side walls and still give me haunting imaging. Ki, You have a fine example of each format there. You have sparked my curiosity. I have all of the parts to put together a pair of "super K Horns" using JBL drivers and a speakerlab bass bin. I'll have to pursue that project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Choi Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Mark: It's a compromise set up based on fixed position of Khorns. I don't move the Quads (now sitting on top of Gradient SW-63s instead of the stands) when I play them. I did get a fuller soundstage when I had them directly in front of the Khorns' paths but having them way out near the side walls, I get almost unnatural headphone effect from the Quads. The way the center image is so vividly presented and gives me the depth perception so missing with my other two speakers systems. It is very intoxicating...The B&Ws do image the best when I pull them out near the middle of the room but I lose bass... As others have said, in different dimensions and portotioned room, it would certainly work differently. I'd like to find a permanet place for either the Khorns and Quads somewhere else in the house. I should get rid of the B&Ws and other too heavy to lift SS amps and preamps - focus on tube stuff once again. Speaking of tube stuff. Since you have graciously replaced my Peach when it had abnormal ground noise right out of the box, it had been performing well but I am interest in getting three more 6DJ8s that would you had supplied with the preamp. Let me know if they are available. Ki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 BS Button, Your two comments jumped out to me.... That the B &W 's Very desirous of massive wattage That the Klipsch were An exceptional Value offered by Klipsch ! Also that Most Klipsch don't requre massive wattage to run them........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiocvk Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 I do not think Rotel is the problem you are hearing, it has to be something else. I have Rotel RB-1080 (200wpc) and RB-1090 (380wpc) and from time to time, I listen to them with my B&W N800 speakers and I have no problems, it works well, and at any volumes..... except for maybe the Rotel RB-1080.... say from 0 to 2 it isn't as open as the RB-1090 at those low volumes but once the RB-1080 is around 2 and up volume, it opens up plenty. Pre-amps are Rotel RC-1070 and RC-1090. I own many Stereo equip. from all walks from affordable to very expensive and Rotel is still among some of my favorites. The B&W N800 have excellent build quality, of course better than Klipsch but much more expensive, but I still listen and enjoy my Klipschorn 2005 and Klipsch RF-7 speakers the most out of my many outragous collection of speakers. Klipsch does offer excellent value in general. The RF-7 has excellent imaging. I would like to get some of that excellent imaging out of my Klipschorn's and I'm thinking I might if maybe I close the backs and position them how I have the RF-7's. I have perfect corners for my Klipschorn's and they sound great, but I love the pin-point imaging of the RF-7's and would love to achive this in my Klipschorn's if it's possible but I haven't had the time to experiment with this yet. Every room in my home has 2 or 3 (2-channel) setups with many more speakers than equipment. I know, I need help but I haven't been able to help myself. I have more Klipsch speakers (different models) than our whole audio stores in our area! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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