Question for Bodcaw Boy (Roy)

[ClaudeJ1]

I have 3 spare Electro Voice DH1A drivers with old CD horns. I'm thinking of upgrading my Klipschorn tops to your large 402 horn and using a digital crossover with time delay for Bi amping.

Is the horn lens itself available for purchase? Will my drivers bolt right on to it? If not, can they be adapted? Is this an improment or am I wasting my time?

If this is an improvement, is it lower distortion at higher levels and better phase cohenrence and imaging? Am I correct in assuming that this will go to 20K hz. since the 2" throat drivers are titanium? If so will they require a CD equalization, which is built in to the Xover anyhow?

TIA

[Coytee]

I'm not going to pretend to speak for anyone, but isn't the Khorn the specific Heritage model that the K402 WON'T work with?? I thought it didn't go high enough and as such, you'd have a hole in the sound until the 402 comes on? (Roy has told me the 402 would work nicely on LaScalas, someone else said it would work nicely on Belle's since these two both go higher than the Khorn)

Maybe your drivers can fix that for all I know?

Here's a thought for you... sell your EV drivers, buy the 402 with driver (under $1,000 apiece) and then when you get it home and it doesn't work well... call him back and order the bottom halves of the speaker and end up swapping your Khorns out for some full blown Jubilees!!

You won't be disappointed... just ask Dean in 7 weeks

[]

[Parrot]

The K-403 is the horn for the true home Jubilee. It's the one PWK used for his own speaker. Wooden ones were deemed too expensive and of uneven quality by Klipsch, so they made some black fiberglass ones.

[ClaudeJ1]

I'm not going to pretend to speak for anyone, but isn't the Khorn the specific Heritage model that the K402 WON'T work with?? I thought it didn't go high enough and as such, you'd have a hole in the sound until the 402 comes on? (Roy has told me the 402 would work nicely on LaScalas, someone else said it would work nicely on Belle's since these two both go higher than the Khorn)

Maybe your drivers can fix that for all I know?

[]

My goal was to make a Tractrix horn similar to the Trachorn from ALK for the EV drivers, but going a bit larger so the horn cutoff is a bit lower. But, if just the horn lens were available alone at a reasonable price...............I thought, because of the name, the 402, it was a 400 Hz. horn, just like the 401, only new/improved and designed by Roy. I have the space above the Khorn in my corners. So if the Khorn has had 400 hz. exponential horns since 1957, and 50 years later I can upgrade to a superior 400 Hz horn, at a nominal cost, why not do it?

Everyone here seems to be upgrading their Heritage speakers to Tractrix horns (present in all the current Klipsch lines), but it seems there is too small of a market to justify their existence in the home market in the USA. It would also not make sense to upgrade the vererable Khorn with such a large horn 402 vs. 401 horn (low WAF), which doesn't matter behind a theater screen or in my basement, which my wife respects as my domain. I don't want to try and re-invent the wheel if a PWK disciple (Roy) has already done all the R&D for a PWK aproved horn. and all I have to do is bolt it onto an existing device in my arsenal. Even if I were to make my own out of wood, I don't have instruments to measure it.

I don't have a big budget for this as I got a lot of my parts in trade, etc. for other stuff. so a $2,000 upgrade is out of the question. I have a LaScala center channel (going back to 1977), but for HT, I can't upgrade that one to a larger horn because I will need the room above it for a projector screen. This is a slow and careful project for me and I'm trying to get the best bang for the buck.

Since you own these things, do you feel you are in need of a super tweeter with them? Or are the highs OK. Do you have a passive or active Xover? If so, is the horn a CD type horn that requires a 6 db/octabve attenuation towards the low end of the 3.5-20K band? Also, since I think K&A were buying their drivers from

EV, I was going by the notion that horn may have been developed for a

K&A branded EV driver

.

[ClaudeJ1]

The K-403 is the horn for the true home Jubilee. It's the one PWK used for his own speaker. Wooden ones were deemed too expensive and of uneven quality by Klipsch, so they made some black fiberglass ones.

OK, so now I'm really confused. Are we talking about a 400Hz Xover here??

[sfogg]

"but isn't the Khorn the specific Heritage model that the K402 WON'T
work with?? I thought it didn't go high enough and as such, you'd have
a hole in the sound until the 402 comes on?"

I thought Roy had said in one thread it loads down to around 350hz or so. That could be made to work with the K'Horn with a sharp crossover.

Shawn

[Coytee]

Since you own these things, do you feel you are in need of a super tweeter with them? Or are the highs OK.

I do not feel the need for a super tweeter at all. The K-69 IS the tweeter driver on the 3-way version. Drew Bolce and Terry DeWick were over once. They brought a RTA with them. Memory tells me not only was the 402 flat as a pancake on the RTA but it went up to something like 18 or 18.5Khz before it petered out?? As I recall, it clearly went above anything we could hear yet the scale on the RTA kept climbing as the sweep played on.

Do you have a passive or active Xover?

Yes, I'm using the EV Dx-38 as is Mike, Ralph and soon to be Bob. Dean is going to start with the passives but we might swap for a while after he has them so we can both see what the other sounds like.

If so, is the horn a CD type horn that requires a 6 db/octabve attenuation towards the low end of the 3.5-20K band?

I don't know, but I've heard others make comment about some eq'ing going on, so perhaps this is it?

[bodcaw boy]

I have 3 spare Electro Voice DH1A drivers with old CD horns. I'm thinking of upgrading my Klipschorn tops to your large 402 horn and using a digital crossover with time delay for Bi amping.

dh1a are good drivers and they should bolt right up to the 402 (i believe that dh1a's are 2 inch exit drivers). you should hear a difference most notably because of even coverage patterns and if your cd horns use diffraction slots, then most defintely in the articulation and clarity of the mid.

you might could get away with crossing the khorn lf at about 500 hz with a little eqing and then crossover to the 402 at 500 hz. i have not personally tried it but i do know that the khorn lf raw without network does a good job to get to 500 hz.

Is the horn lens itself available for purchase? Will my drivers bolt right on to it? If not, can they be adapted? Is this an improment or am I wasting my time?

unfortunately, you have to buy the driver/horn/assy unit. your driver should bolt right on the horn without an adaptor.

If this is an improvement, is it lower distortion at higher levels and better phase cohenrence and imaging? Am I correct in assuming that this will go to 20K hz. since the 2" throat drivers are titanium? If so will they require a CD equalization, which is built in to the Xover anyhow?

the k-69 that comes with the horn contains a diaphragm and phase plug combo that would require a whole lot less eq at the top end than the dh1a's although those are good drivers.

TIA

hope this helped.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[bodcaw boy]

I'm not going to pretend to speak for anyone, but isn't the Khorn the specific Heritage model that the K402 WON'T work with?? I thought it didn't go high enough and as such, you'd have a hole in the sound until the 402 comes on? (Roy has told me the 402 would work nicely on LaScalas, someone else said it would work nicely on Belle's since these two both go higher than the Khorn)

Maybe your drivers can fix that for all I know?

[]

My goal was to make a Tractrix horn similar to the Trachorn from ALK for the EV drivers, but going a bit larger so the horn cutoff is a bit lower. But, if just the horn lens were available alone at a reasonable price...............I thought, because of the name, the 402, it was a 400 Hz. horn, just like the 401, only new/improved and designed by Roy. I have the space above the Khorn in my corners. So if the Khorn has had 400 hz. exponential horns since 1957, and 50 years later I can upgrade to a superior 400 Hz horn, at a nominal cost, why not do it?

it is a 400 hz horn but most compression drivers that go down below 500 hz, give up high freq extension.

Everyone here seems to be upgrading their Heritage speakers to Tractrix horns (present in all the current Klipsch lines), but it seems there is too small of a market to justify their existence in the home market in the USA. It would also not make sense to upgrade the vererable Khorn with such a large horn 402 vs. 401 horn (low WAF), which doesn't matter behind a theater screen or in my basement, which my wife respects as my domain. I don't want to try and re-invent the wheel if a PWK disciple (Roy) has already done all the R&D for a PWK aproved horn. and all I have to do is bolt it onto an existing device in my arsenal. Even if I were to make my own out of wood, I don't have instruments to measure it.

I don't have a big budget for this as I got a lot of my parts in trade, etc. for other stuff. so a $2,000 upgrade is out of the question. I have a LaScala center channel (going back to 1977), but for HT, I can't upgrade that one to a larger horn because I will need the room above it for a projector screen. This is a slow and careful project for me and I'm trying to get the best bang for the buck.

Since you own these things, do you feel you are in need of a super tweeter with them? Or are the highs OK. Do you have a passive or active Xover? If so, is the horn a CD type horn that requires a 6 db/octabve attenuation towards the low end of the 3.5-20K band? Also, since I think K&A were buying their drivers from EV, I was going by the notion that horn may have been developed for a K&A branded EV driver

.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[bodcaw boy]

The K-403 is the horn for the true home Jubilee. It's the one PWK used for his own speaker. Wooden ones were deemed too expensive and of uneven quality by Klipsch, so they made some black fiberglass ones.

actually.....no....poo poo,

the 403 original horns, to see if they would work, were made out of fiberglass as were all our horns that we were prototyping. we decided to go wood in order to show the horn "naked" on top of the lf. biggest deviation between the 510/402 and 403 was that the 403 had collapsing vertical polar patterns and controlled horizontal polar patterns while the 510/402 had both vertical and horizontal polar patterns be controlled.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[Parrot]

Good info, Bad Cowboy, but getting it out of you is like pulling teeth. I've yet to run into anyone in this sweet old world who worried about "collapsing vertical polar patterns" so how important could it be?

All Klipsch now needs to do is get some K-403 horns manufactured, build a top to enclose it like the Khorn top, commission Al K. to design some crossover networks for it, veneer the front, and you've got a true home Jubilee.

[bodcaw boy]

i'll get right on it poo poo!!

have a blessed day

roy "dentures" delgado

ps i have to take ambien because i worry about collapsing verticals but now since you say not to worry about it, i can just count horns and fall asleep, no problem!!

[J.4knee]

I don't have a big budget for this as I got a lot of my parts in trade, etc. for other stuff. so a $2,000 upgrade is out of the question. I have a LaScala center channel (going back to 1977), but for HT, I can't upgrade that one to a larger horn because I will need the room above it for a projector screen. This is a slow and careful project for me and I'm trying to get the best bang for the buck.

You could use a K510 and K69 in your LS w/active XO

[rigma]

May the great bird of paradise poo poo in your Post Tosties! Who remembers that?

Rigma

[ClaudeJ1]

I have 3 spare Electro Voice DH1A drivers with old CD horns. I'm thinking of upgrading my Klipschorn tops to your large 402 horn and using a digital crossover with time delay for Bi amping.

dh1a are good drivers and they should bolt right up to the 402 (i believe that dh1a's are 2 inch exit drivers). you should hear a difference most notably because of even coverage patterns and if your cd horns use diffraction slots, then most defintely in the articulation and clarity of the mid.

you might could get away with crossing the khorn lf at about 500 hz with a little eqing and then crossover to the 402 at 500 hz. i have not personally tried it but i do know that the khorn lf raw without network does a good job to get to 500 hz.

Is the horn lens itself available for purchase? Will my drivers bolt right on to it? If not, can they be adapted? Is this an improment or am I wasting my time?

unfortunately, you have to buy the driver/horn/assy unit. your driver should bolt right on the horn without an adaptor.

If this is an improvement, is it lower distortion at higher levels and better phase cohenrence and imaging? Am I correct in assuming that this will go to 20K hz. since the 2" throat drivers are titanium? If so will they require a CD equalization, which is built in to the Xover anyhow?

the k-69 that comes with the horn contains a diaphragm and phase plug combo that would require a whole lot less eq at the top end than the dh1a's although those are good drivers.

TIA

hope this helped.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

Tremendously so. Thanks for your time and insights.

[rigma]

There are only two reasons I can think of as to why a person would come to this site and repeatedly post pessimistic and negative commentary.

One, this person genuinely cares about the human psyche and is playing "devil's advocate" in an attempt to make sure people do not become blinded by their optimism while neglecting to take conscious action to change life for the better.

Two, this person is hungry for attention, thrives on conflict, and is trying his darndest to get people to argue with him -- he likes getting people riled up so he can mock them.

I haven't quite figured out which is the case here, but I am willing to give "poo poo" the benefit of the doubt and tentatively assume Option 1. If he is a troll, I am certainly not one to provide that sort of beast with his desired nourishment.

rigma

[Parrot]

It's interesting when a purchaser of a speaker needs extreme amounts of assurance from others that he did the right thing. You might think that if a speaker were that good, its purchaser wouldn't be so insecure, so defensive, so upset when someone points out blatantly obvious aesthetic problems or discusses its top's true history.

[Parrot]

Everyone here seems to be upgrading their Heritage speakers to Tractrix horns (present in all the current Klipsch lines), but it seems there is too small of a market to justify their existence in the home market in the USA. It would also not make sense to upgrade the vererable Khorn with such a large horn 402 vs. 401 horn (low WAF), which doesn't matter behind a theater screen or in my basement, which my wife respects as my domain. I don't want to try and re-invent the wheel if a PWK disciple (Roy) has already done all the R&D for a PWK aproved horn. and all I have to do is bolt it onto an existing device in my arsenal. Even if I were to make my own out of wood, I don't have instruments to measure it.

Not sure what you mean by "Everyone here"--hardly more than a few have gone that route. They just post far more frequently than the thousands who keep things stock.

"PWK approved horn" is not correct. PWK never even saw the 402, let alone heard it. He used the 403 in his public demo of the Jubilees, and had the 403 in his own home. Unfortunately PWK became too infirm and eventually died before the Jubilee top was completed to his satisfaction. What is available from the factory is the Jubilee low frequency bin, which was the big deal to PWK anyway, and your choice of either the 510 or 402 from Klipsch for higher frequencies, or some other non-Klipsch configuration of your own choice. The Jubilee as it exists today should be viewed as a tinkerer's speaker (because of the top and lack of aesthetics), and not a finished, home product. Better heard and not seen, it is something that calls for the purchaser's active involvement, rather than a speaker you can just relax and forget about as you enjoy the music.

[edwinr]

I thought Roy, in his infinite wisdom, made it clear in previous threads that the Jubilee low frequency bin had been pretty much finalized before PWK died. It is also clear that the higher frequency horn not been finalized - so the home Jubilee as it stands is an unfinished project. There can be no doubt that any person that buys the Jubilee does so with the understanding that they will have to 'tinker' and experiment with the high frequuency horn options and a suitable crossover.

[Parrot]

I thought Roy, in his infinite wisdom, made it clear in previous threads that the Jubilee low frequency bin had been pretty much finalized before PWK died.

Yes, that's true. The only thing lacking in the low frequency bin is the veneer and grilles, and those are available as special orders from the factory (I think).