Question for Bodcaw Boy (Roy)

[sfogg]

"The 511B is an exponential horn, and like all exponentials suffers from the same problem -- irregular launching of the wavefront from the mouth of the horn"

All exponentials don't sound the same though since there are plenty of other variables in a horn beyond just its type of flare. I would not consider the 511B a 'subtle' upgrade over the K400 either. Much more open sounding. Haven't heard the Trachorn so I can't compare those two. The biggest problem I had with the 511B when running two way were those darn collapsing vertical polar patterns.

Shawn

[Deang]

The biggest problem I had with the 511B when running two way were those darn collapsing vertical polar patterns.

If you'd get out more, you could have avoided that problem.

[Deang]

Better can mean better specs, an objective measurement. Preferable is a different matter, and is subjective. I preferred the stock horn and tweeter on La Scalas when I heard them, as opposed to Al K.'s trachorn and a fancy tweeter. I wasn't the only one, either. The aftermarket stuff sounded fine, and I'd be happy enough with it, but I preferred the factory stock items.

Then you wouldn't like the Jubilee, which means you no longer have to worry about any of this.

[Deang]

Did you try a pair of 511's in your Khorns?

Nope, never tried them.

I've never really heard him come out and say his Trachorn was better than the 511.

He doesn't need to, look at his plot.

I like your explanation above in principle, but principle can fall short of results at times.

Sure, but I don't think this is one of those times. Remember too that quite a few of Al's Trachorns have been sold to people who were previously using the 511.

"Ms. Golden-Ears and I spent about four hours listening last night. We both agree that the new horns are much clearer and more natural sounding than the Altec 511s. For the first time violins sound almost like what I hear at the concert hall. Voices are clear and very distinct..."

[sfogg]

Dean,

"He doesn't need to, look at his plot.:)"

One plot does not tell the whole story though. Moving the mic a couple of inches could result in a very different plot.

Also.. don't forget to think power response differences for example.... the 511B may be down a little compared to the Trachorn with the k55 on the top end because the Trachorn is narrowing its dispersion ahead of the 511B. IOW the 511B may be holding its pattern to a higher frequency then the Trachorn so the K55 isn't getting the narrowing EQ boost from the horn. Subjectively how that ends up sounding in room will vary. If it were a difference in pattern when measured in room the complete opposite could occur... the Trachorn could be down relative to the 511b due to differences in power response.

Or it might not be.

The single plot doesn't tell enough to answer that question.

Doesn't really matter either way though... you are going to like to K402. The K402 with a K55 would measure down compared to the Trachorn too you know.

Shawn

[Deang]

LOL! All true, what can I say?

[colterphoto1]

Question for Berryboy Roy

'Who cuts your hair man?"

[IndyKlipschFan]

Are you coming to Indy for sure? June 22- 24th?

[jwc]

I see. This is good info on the 511. So the Trachorn is considered an upgrade from the 511.

By the way, I am not selling the idea that I thought the 511 was the king of horns or anything. I also am not comparing it to the K402 either. So the Trachorn may be in my future or something similar.

jc

[3dzapper]

It seems to me that Altec 511B's are only marginally better than K400/401's and that everyone that goes to the trouble of doing that end up with Trachorns anyhow.

Not sure where you are getting this information from but they are far from marginally better. I think the reason they end up going with the Trachorns is because they can be hidden much easier in the enclosure, and Al sells the top hats to go with them.

Mike

Mike, Compared to trakhorns, 511s are only marginally better than K-400s.

[Mike Lindsey]

It seems to me that Altec 511B's are only marginally better than K400/401's and that everyone that goes to the trouble of doing that end up with Trachorns anyhow.

Not sure where you are getting this information from but they are far from marginally better. I think the reason they end up going with the Trachorns is because they can be hidden much easier in the enclosure, and Al sells the top hats to go with them.

Mike

Mike, Compared to trakhorns, 511s are only marginally better than K-400s.

That may be true... but in my room with my La Scala's the 511B dusted off the K400, and it wasn't subtle. This was with K55's and Universal ALK networks (stock tweets).

Mike

[cjgeraci]

I see. This is good info on the 511. So the Trachorn is considered an upgrade from the 511.

By the way, I am not selling the idea that I thought the 511 was the king of horns or anything. I also am not comparing it to the K402 either. So the Trachorn may be in my future or something similar.

jc

I currently have both. Trachorns in the front (Khorns) and 511s in the rear (Belles). Much nicer Altec drivers with the 511s in the rear as opposed to the Trachorns in the front (K55Vs).

To my ears, the Trachorns are an upgrade from the 511s.

Carl.

[bodcaw boy]

It's interesting when a purchaser of a speaker needs extreme amounts of assurance from others that he did the right thing. You might think that if a speaker were that good, its purchaser wouldn't be so insecure, so defensive, so upset when someone points out blatantly obvious aesthetic problems or discusses its top's true history.

rigma,

looks like it #2!! for poo poo!!

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[bodcaw boy]

Everyone here seems to be upgrading their Heritage speakers to Tractrix horns (present in all the current Klipsch lines), but it seems there is too small of a market to justify their existence in the home market in the USA. It would also not make sense to upgrade the vererable Khorn with such a large horn 402 vs. 401 horn (low WAF), which doesn't matter behind a theater screen or in my basement, which my wife respects as my domain. I don't want to try and re-invent the wheel if a PWK disciple (Roy) has already done all the R&D for a PWK aproved horn. and all I have to do is bolt it onto an existing device in my arsenal. Even if I were to make my own out of wood, I don't have instruments to measure it.

Not sure what you mean by "Everyone here"--hardly more than a few have gone that route. They just post far more frequently than the thousands who keep things stock.

"PWK approved horn" is not correct. PWK never even saw the 402, let alone heard it. He used the 403 in his public demo of the Jubilees, and had the 403 in his own home. Unfortunately PWK became too infirm and eventually died before the Jubilee top was completed to his satisfaction. What is available from the factory is the Jubilee low frequency bin, which was the big deal to PWK anyway, and your choice of either the 510 or 402 from Klipsch for higher frequencies, or some other non-Klipsch configuration of your own choice. The Jubilee as it exists today should be viewed as a tinkerer's speaker (because of the top and lack of aesthetics), and not a finished, home product. Better heard and not seen, it is something that calls for the purchaser's active involvement, rather than a speaker you can just relax and forget about as you enjoy the music.

poo poo,

uh.....no.....paul saw the 402 and the 940 and the 941and the 150......and......uh....no......we finished the top, bottom all of it; never made it to production........uh.....no.....i have given the purchaser several ways to forget about it and enjoy the music.....with your eyes closed of course.

the facts are there for your enjoyment or you could say,

DON'T BOTHER ME WITH THE FACTS, I GOT MY MIND MADE UP!

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[bodcaw boy]

That's apparently correct about special order bass bins. Roy (again) has indicated special orders are not necessarily against policy. It would be nice, though, if Klipsch were able to engineer a dress arrangement for the mid/treble horn. I reckon a domestic version of the Jubilee, even if only a special order option, would make a nice flagship statement...

not in the near future; that's why i went this route. i don't even think people in indy (except for michael "hello my name is michael and i have a speaker problem" colter) know that jubs are going in homes (maybe trey and of course momma amy know), sent of course with beautifying pills to make the jubs look pretty!!

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[bodcaw boy]

The K-403 is the horn for the true home Jubilee. It's the one PWK used for his own speaker. Wooden ones were deemed too expensive and of uneven quality by Klipsch, so they made some black fiberglass ones.

actually.....no....poo poo,

the 403 original horns, to see if they would work, were made out of fiberglass as were all our horns that we were prototyping. we decided to go wood in order to show the horn "naked" on top of the lf. biggest deviation between the 510/402 and 403 was that the 403 had collapsing vertical polar patterns and controlled horizontal polar patterns while the 510/402 had both vertical and horizontal polar patterns be controlled.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

If understand this correctly, this means that with higher frequency, the "beamwidth" for lack of a better layman's term, gets narrower in the vertical but is maintaned in the horizontal. This would appear to be a good design choice (trade-off?) to get a smaller, more aesthetically pleasing, yet still good sounding, horn, right? Since the 402 is being used behind a screen (it's design intent) then bigger is better and aesthetics be damned, it's the performance........................................am I on the right track here?

with the introduction of the forte ii, chorus ii and quartet, we have started going down the constant coverage thing as a way to try to eliminate another eqing variable from the mix. the horns have gotten better and better (and sometimes not []) in maintaining constant coverage patterns. to us, for home, this translates into a flat power response and for the commercial, a predictable sound sphere.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[bodcaw boy]

i'll get right on it poo poo!!

have a blessed day

roy "dentures" delgado

ps i have to take ambien because i worry about collapsing verticals but now since you say not to worry about it, i can just count horns and fall asleep, no problem!!

I've heard of sleep drivers with Ambien. It's a good thing that cars have collapsable columns and inflatable bubbles in case you roll-off the road.

Roy, Is this you in your younger days?

heeeyyyyy....my yearbook picture!!

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[bodcaw boy]

Since you have nothing better to do, why don't you post the vertical polar responses for all Klipsch Heritage speakers, and overlay them on the K-510 and K-402? Thanks in advance.

I have this funny preference of listening to music instead of pink noise and test tones, but to each his own.

you listen?

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[bodcaw boy]

Everyone here seems to be upgrading their Heritage speakers to Tractrix horns (present in all the current Klipsch lines), but it seems there is too small of a market to justify their existence in the home market in the USA. It would also not make sense to upgrade the vererable Khorn with such a large horn 402 vs. 401 horn (low WAF), which doesn't matter behind a theater screen or in my basement, which my wife respects as my domain. I don't want to try and re-invent the wheel if a PWK disciple (Roy) has already done all the R&D for a PWK aproved horn. and all I have to do is bolt it onto an existing device in my arsenal. Even if I were to make my own out of wood, I don't have instruments to measure it.

Not sure what you mean by "Everyone here"--hardly more than a few have gone that route. They just post far more frequently than the thousands who keep things stock.

"PWK approved horn" is not correct. PWK never even saw the 402, let alone heard it. He used the 403 in his public demo of the Jubilees, and had the 403 in his own home. Unfortunately PWK became too infirm and eventually died before the Jubilee top was completed to his satisfaction. What is available from the factory is the Jubilee low frequency bin, which was the big deal to PWK anyway, and your choice of either the 510 or 402 from Klipsch for higher frequencies, or some other non-Klipsch configuration of your own choice. The Jubilee as it exists today should be viewed as a tinkerer's speaker (because of the top and lack of aesthetics), and not a finished, home product. Better heard and not seen, it is something that calls for the purchaser's active involvement, rather than a speaker you can just relax and forget about as you enjoy the music.

Well I didn't know the 402 was designed after the 403 was designed.

it wasn't thus 400, 401, 402 and 403....

I actually was at Ceasar's Palace for a photo convention, which was, co-incidentally at the tail end of the CES show that year. in Jan. 1999. I was pleasantly surprised to see Klispsh sign in the Hallway and walked in. I think I met Roy, but I'm not sure it was him, certainly looked like the guy in PWK's biography.

that was my first and only ces. and to top it off, someone broke into my room, with me in it, in the middle of the night and tried to steal some stuff. to this day, i had tried to figure out who it was and then it dawned on me that maybe it was poo poo parrot. but i scratched him off the list when he started poo pooing the jubilee...........what were they trying to steal? a jubilee of course! (ummmm, in case deano reads this, i just made it up......shhhhh)

Anyway I had been to PWK's house in 1985 and I wanted to say hi and see if he remembered me, but I missed him by 10 minutes. I saw the Jubilees there and they looked gorgeous. I'm assuming that's when the photo of Paul with the Jubs was taken, but I digress.

Of course I was referring to only those people on the forum that upgrade they Khorn tops and not the guys who just listen to stock units. So, "everyone" implied everyone that does top end tweaks only not those other guys. It seems to me that Altec 511B's are only marginally better than K400/401's and that everyone that goes to the trouble of doing that end up with Trachorns anyhow. I'm not looking for an argument either way. I have live with my stock 1977 Khorns for 30 years and this group got me thinking about upgrades. So far, so good.

So I got some free audio grade capacitors from a friend whose son is an audio engineers and I'm recapping all 3 AA's on my fronts. I'm also building a self-contained walnut boxes (from the front faces of old desk drawers) to match the Walnut on my K's to house a Xover designed by John Warren for my JBL 2404's, which will sit above my disconnected T-35's. They are too bright the way they sit now with the AA tweeter section going direct so that will be the next incremental improvent with an eye for a future mid Horn for my DH1a's.

The mids are a more expensive and laborious proposition vs. the tweeter upgrade that's for sure. I don't want to do it twice.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[bodcaw boy]

Question for Berryboy Roy

'Who cuts your hair man?"

where'd you buy that shirt?

have a blessed day,

roy delgado