Just ordered a Trends 10.1 Class T Digital Amp - A whopping $130

[meagain]

My hubby <--- Sax player

[kaiser SET say]

You Sax fiend[]

[sfogg]

"Everytime I've read about the comparisons, more people preferred the sound of the recording! "

I assume you have read the old AR demos in Grand Central? I think most times people couldn't tell them apart. You know the trick for those comparisons?

If you do amp comparisons does Klipsch have an ABX box? If not I'll lend mine to Roy or Trey or somebody.... would give you IR remote switching of A/B/X and it will even tabulate ones score automatically.

Shawn

[DrWho]

You can find all the info here:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/10/ShowForum.aspx

Saturday June 23, 2007 is the official Klipsch sponsored event (it

usually runs all day). The Friday night before is the Mixer which is

put on by the forum members (usually in one of the hotels). The mixer

is where we get to do most of our own listening.

[DrWho]

You know the trick for those comparisons?

Volume matching?

Are you not going Shawn? It'd be a hoot to talk to you in person. I know Klipsch has switching boxes - not sure if it they're blind ABX. They gotta be though because they've got a whole room set up for blind listening.

[sfogg]

"Volume matching?"

Key when comparing two amps (two pre-amps, two CD players...etc...etc) but not really possible when doing live vs. recorded.

Do you want the answer or do you want to think about it more?

"They gotta be though because they've got a whole room set up for blind listening."

They are probably all set then. I have QSC ABX box which is pretty slick. They might have the same one since there have only been A/B/X boxes made by a couple of companies.

"Are you not going Shawn? "

It would be fun but I doubt I'd be able to get away.

Shawn

[DrWho]

Well I can think of a lot of "tricks" but not anything that could be considered as "a trick"...mic'ing techniques, acoustics, etc etc...

I'll go bother Trey and Roy and see if they have a proper ABX box - just to make sure.

[sfogg]

"Well I can think of a lot of "tricks" but not anything that could be
considered as "a trick"...mic'ing techniques, acoustics, etc etc..."

When you make the recording you make it as dead as possible.

That way on playback you only have that sound of the room it is played back in... the same as you will get from the live player(s). If you don't make the recording dead on playback you have the 'hall sound' in the recording and the room it is played back ins sound and the live will only have the rooms sound. It is a big giveaway.

Shawn

[Mallette]

You can find all the info here:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/10/ShowForum.aspx

Saturday June 23, 2007 is the official Klipsch sponsored event (it usually runs all day). The Friday night before is the Mixer which is put on by the forum members (usually in one of the hotels). The mixer is where we get to do most of our own listening.

Doesn't look promising. I work 10/5 and that is in the middle of an "on." I'll have to look at my vacation schedule as well as the rig build/crew train schedule to see if it can be done. I'd really like to provide one of my piano recordings of "Clair de lune" for an amp and/or speaker shootout. The piece has lots of places where noiseless switching can be done for blind, and, IMOH, lots of fine nuance, harmonics, punch, etc. I had one guy at a hornhead gathering wander out into the hall while I was playing it one time and I thought perhaps he'd lost interest. When it was done and he returned, I asked him. He said his key indicator of piano recording success was to listen to it from another room. If it sounded like a good recording, it was not. If it sounded like a piano in the next room, it was good. Mobile Homeless (the long gone, and missed, Kelly Holsten) dropped me a note a few months back saying he still enjoyed this one as I had sent him a copy several years ago.

I've noted this is true...

Dave

[pete almquist]

heh, heh...i just noticed something. was reading the user manual that came with the trends amp (yes, amazing isn't it...). anyway, you notice how a lot of manuals from the orient are translated funny? this one has a rather obvious error; it says to turn the volume knob clockwise to reduce the volume. damn, it just kept getting louder for me...

[Daddy Dee]

Engrish

[Deang]

1. The bar is always set very low for these amps. Most people expect "nothing" for their $100 and when it plays at all they are astonished. So, you have to ask, if they paid $3995 for it, would they be just as astonished?

I think people buy them expecting them to sound decent, but not really expecting them to measure up to the hype or sound good enough to be part of a serious system. People are astonished because they sound good, not because they make noise when you turn them on. If they were expensive, there would still be amazement that something so diminutive sounds as good as it does. I wonder how many amps costing $4000 would bring "astonishment" -- not because of how good they sound, but because of how sterile, irritating, or uninvolving they sound on a pair horn loudspeakers.

2. Aesthetics count. They eye-brain connection is powerful. You get a tiny plastic amp when you are accustomed to 100 pound amps, and you are incredulous that it can play. It does, you are amazed, and you rave about it. See #1.

People don't "rave" about something just because it works when you plug it in, and most don't rave about something that sounds marginally acceptable or decent. However, people do rave when something that costs less than $150 sounds subjectively as good or better than $2000 solid state or tube amps edging up to the $1500 price point.

3. Has anyone compared one of these cheapies to a cheap class AB chip amp? Like the NS Overture-based amps? You can get the chip for about $3 bucks. I guess you could build an amp for $10 bucks or less. How does that little amp compare? I ask because my suspicion is that it will get the same raves, for exactly the same reason.

These amps don't all sound the same. For example, I wasn't that impressed with the original SI, but I've had my SI Super-T in the system for most of the last year. That's not too bad considering my track record with gear changeouts. Even now, while looking at upgrade possibilities, I find myself more interested in other Tripath implementations as opposed to other choices.

4. I have had two of these Class D "or whatever" amps in my system briefly. I thought they sounded as good as my wife's Denon receiver, and as good as my JVC surround receiver sounded. In other words, "just fine" for any kind of casual listening. I didn't think either of them sounded anything at all like a "high end amp" in either the tube or SS category, any more than I would think of a $1500 Sony receiver in that category.

Either those receivers sound incredible, or I've been listening to some very bad sounding gear over the years! I don't know what you used, but they obviously weren't in the same category as the Super-T or Trends.

So, if a $59 thing sounds as good as a $1500 thing, that's good, right? They are flying off the shelves for good reason then. Someone here liked it better than their SET amps. That's pretty interesting for sure.

Search the other forums on the net, and you'll find quite a few dumping their low powered tube stuff for the better implementations of these amps. No, they're not doing it with the cheapest versions of these things (which the Trends and Super-T are not).

5. I am reminded of two historical transitions: 1) the 1960's changeover from SS to tube; 2) the 1980's change from LP to CD. In each case, there was a landslide movement to adopt the new thing and everyone raved about the improved sound. In a few years, everyone cried about the horrible new sound and those who cared went back to the old technology.

People who previously would not consider running solid state in their systems under any condition -- are running these amps.

[Mallette]

Dean, Mark:
Excellent and interesting exchange with great points for discussion on both sides. This is an audiophile dialectic in the process of working itself out. I have truly enjoyed this entire thread. I have been using Class D for over 2 years now and have never wavered from my first moment of hearing it that no SS amp at any price I've ever heard sounded this good to my ears. I eventually quit mentioning it an amp threads as for the first 18 months or so I rec'd either incredulous derision or it would kill the thread.

Price has to do with the skill, cost of components, and complexity to produce a product. Quality is defined as fitness for intended use. These have nothing to do with each other. When invention or technology provides a less complex and expensive way to produce a widget that is fit for its intended use, it is by definition the best. Aluminum was once more precious that gold, and harder to come by. Now, we wrap sandwiches with it.

Dave

[sfogg]

" I am simply asking if anyone has experience with the super cheap single chip AB amps? I don't see too much talk of them. "

I built one of the 'chip' amps but still have never gotten around to plugging it into the main system. With my bi-amp setup it is a fair amount of work to put them in and I think they might have a touch of a turn on/off transient (not good biamping) and they had a little too much DC offset. The DC offset can be fixed by altering their feedback loop a little I believe. And I only built 2 channels though have the parts for 2 more channels. I'd need 6 to run my L/C/Rs. If I was going to run it on the my L/C/Rs I'd probably add relay switching to avoid transients like what the Teacs have in them.

I posted a few measurements of it here:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/642213.aspx

If the amp **** (Dean) wants to hear it I'd be glad to send it to him to try out. It is nothing pretty to look at.

Shawn

[sfogg]

"If the amp *** (Dean)"

LOL, OK so I got censored on that one. Should be four '*' there... first letter 'S' last letter 'T' with a 'U' and 'L' thrown in as well, but maybe not in that order.

Or said another way... If the amp 01110011011011000111010101110100 (Dean)

If the censoring software catches that I will be impressed......

Shawn

[Deang]

So, you seem to agree that they have low expectations, and then are pleasantly surprised.

O.K., sure, but it wasn't like I was expecting "nothing", and then was "astonished". I'd read the reviews and things people were saying, and so was expecting something that sounded decent -- when it sounded significantly better than decent, yes, I was surprised. The real point here is that if it only sounded "decent" -- it wouldn't be in my system.

I don't get the dichotomy there? I certainly wouldn't imply you were listening to bad gear, and I don't think my receivers are all that incredible.

You said the sound was on par with your wife's Denon receiver and your Sony surround sound receiver. If what you tried sounded as good as what I'm using right now, then I would have to say the sound of mass market receivers have come a long way, and would have to sound as good or better than many things I've had in my system over the last few years.

I think like most modern receivers and many typical SS amps they have a very acceptable sound.

I almost don't know how to respond to that. I haven't seriously listened to a receiver in 10 years, and I don't know what you would consider as being a "typical" SS amp. I like the sound of the Super-T as much as some of the better things I've owned, which wouldn't include the receivers and solid state amps -- which normally sound pretty hashy to me.

[Daddy Dee]

I think like most modern receivers and many typical SS amps they
have a very acceptable sound. I had the basic $39 SI amp, and I had a
homebrew TriPath (earlier version in 2002).

Mark,

Of course, I don't know what the homebrew Tripath sounded like compared to the original SI T amp you mention. IHowever, 'm understanding that you thought they were pretty comparable.

When I first listened to the SI T amp, I giggled that a toy would sound as good as that and then put it away, because to my ears it sounded edgy in the HF and ultimately not a workable solution for ongoing use.

I was skeptical of the internet postings I was reading about folks using these as platforms to modify using quality parts. That original SI board was rather sad looking.

After reading a six moons review of a Super T amp prototype, I thought, I'd really like to check that out. To my ears the improvement was substantial and pleasing.

I don't think I can distinguish any difference in sound between the Trends and Super T, though, on a couple of tracks I wondered if I was hearing something different.

I'd be glad to pack up one of these to ship to you for a listen. I think you'd be interested to hear what the better built little guys sounds like. But, of course, if it was one of LeoK's little guys you heard, you have already heard the tripath chip at it's best, I'd think.

[Arky]

If the censoring software catches that I will be impressed......

Shawn

LOL!

[DrWho]

Or said another way... If the amp 01110011011011000111010101110100 (Dean)

lol, that wouldn't happen to be a PWM encoding would it? []

[sfogg]

" that wouldn't happen to be a PWM encoding would it?"

Nope, just an ASCII encoding.

Shawn