Another LaScala Crossover Question: A/AA vs. Higher Order

[tidmack]

I've been following the most recent crossover threads and have read several times that I may enjoy one of the higher order networks if I listen to music at louder volumes. I have not heard any higher order networks, but here are my experiences:

AL's in a pair of '84 LaScalas I owned for 9 years: Couldn't stand these. Sounded screechy is the best way I can describe it.

AA's in a pair of '78s and '80s I owned for about 6 years (still have the '80s): Once I heard the AA's, I realized how much I disliked the AL's. I found the AA's pleasing to my ears mainly because the highs appeared mellower and less screechy to me.

A's in the '80s I still own: Tarheal (thanks again!) sold me a pair of BEC A's about a month or two ago. Compared to my AA's, the A's seemed a little crisper in the higher frequency, but not screechy like the AL's. Mid bass seems slightly punchier as well, but the difference is subtle at best.

Questions: What will a higher order network offer me that will be more appealing at higher volumes? Are my experiences with the crossovers above consistent with those who like higher order networks? Lastly, does anyone have a pair of higher order networks that I could audition? I'd prefer to hear them on my speakers in my house, since it's the atmosphere I could compare them to what I have most easily. I'm reluctant to purchase without hearing first. . .although it wouldn't be a problem if I could break even if I didn't like the sound.

Thanks again guys, your input/advice is always appreciated-

Jeff

[mark1101]

When you mention higher order networks what comes to mind is the aftermarket flavor of ALK extreme slope. If this is what you mean....I have spent a small fortune on this stuff and currently run ALK ES 400 in my Khorns, and ES 600s in my Jubilee clones.

They are excellent. What they do is eliminate the overlap of music between drviers with very sharp slope cut offs. Gentle slope networks have some of the same music coming out of multiple drivers simultaneously, giving a nice ambience at lower and some mid volume listening....but earning that "harsh" reputation when you really push them. Headache material at louder volumes.

The ES networks will improve clarity and imaging dramatically, especially at the higher volumes. This is where they shine. But......I will tell you they are not cheap. You should check out the ALK engineering website. All excellent designs. http://alkeng.com/

I will never sell my Khorns. I never felt that way before I put the ES400s in them. They make a big difference.

Edit: I forgot to mention that they also provide a virtually constant impedance to the amplifier across the whole frequency spectrum. This is major point of the ALK designs. There are others here who can elaborate on exactly what benefits that gives.

[Guest " "]

"The ES networks will improve clarity and imaging dramatically, especially at the higher volumes. This is where they shine. But......I will tell you they are not cheap. You should check out the ALK engineering website. All excellent designs. http://alkeng.com/"

Agree.

I would define higher volume as a indoor volume level that prevents having a normal conversation with out yelling.  

[tidmack]

Yes, I'm definitely thinking ALK or the like. I guess where I'm going is there are some out there who don't prefer the ALK sound. Based on my poor attempt to describe my experiences with the A/AA/AL crossovers and my tendency to listen at higher volumes, should I be looking to go the ALK (or similiar) route? I hate to ask "what should I do?", but I'd like to make as educated of a purchase as possible. Best case scenario is someone has a used pair of ALK's for sale that I could pick up semi-reasonably. Thanks again-

Jeff

[mark1101]

I've only seen 1 or 2 ALK ES network sets for sale used. For LaScalas you will need the specific type for that speaker. Unlikely to find used.....and well over $1,000 new.

You need to think how important this particular pair of speakers is to you.....and then decide.

I built my own ES 400s and paid around $1,500. This is because I used Auricaps.......which I thank myself every time I listen to them for spending the extra to do that.

Like I said, not cheap.

I spent more for ALK networks for my cornwalls than the cornwalls themselves cost when I bought them....again.....something I will never regret.

To me they make that big a difference. I've done a lot of testing on my system.

But you need to be the one to decide. I can understand how gentle slope networks could be better suited for some applications. But it sounds like you are a candidate for the ES.

[tidmack]

Mark,

Although I'm familiar with Al's networks, I didn't realize the ES's were THAT expensive! I can't access his page here at work, but I thought he made a network in the $400 range?? Are his less expensive networks still higher order?

Jeff

[meagain]

His Universals are around that price.

[mark1101]

The universals are listed at $580.

For LaScalas:

The gentle slopes AP12-500 + ES5800 at $654 (best buy)

The ES500t + ES5800 at $1,150

The gentle slopes are the best buy because they include the ES5800 top section filter which is the same ES squawker/tweeter filter as on the big boy. I actually didn't realize how good a price they were sitting at. I had a pair of those on my Khorns until I upgraded to the full ES bottom end boards. They were very good.

The full ES was the biggest improvement IMHO because it improved bass clarity so much in my system.

Edit: If you bought the gentles, you could upgrade the bottom end boards later. Fully compatible. That's a nice feature. All ALK networks function with each other for gradual upgrading. All right. I'm finished selling Al's stuff. []

[jwc]

I'm in bed with Speakerfritz and Mark1101 on this one.

Imaging is what really comes to mind when I hear ESN's. I have heard several pair. I actually haven't heard a pair in the la Scala though. What I used to have in my La Scalas was ALK Universal A's. That upgrade is what got me started on all my tinkering I do.

You might be able to find some used ALK Universal A's FS on this forum or on Ebay if you are patient.

jc

[cjgeraci]

Jeff, Mark knows of what he speaks. I am finally ready to join the "partial ES" crowd. I've owned a pair of Al's Universals (some call them ALK Seniors) for a couple of years now that were custom-built with some premium caps. Great resolution at lower volumes and less glare at higher volumes than premium-built A and AAs. But, I've finally ordered a set of the "gentles" from Al - that Mark describes above - for my Khorns. My hot-rodded Universals will move to my rear Belles, and I may still upgrade to the "full monty" or full ES - down the road in some time. But, for right now, I wanted to clean up the upper end (squawker to tweeter transition) a little bit more. The "gentles" are a great buy at under 7 beans.

I think due to the way he has ordered parts, Al won't be shipping my gentles for another couple of weeks or so yet. I will let everyone know what I think about them.

Yes, improved imaging comes with higher order networks. But, a less distorted and cleaner sound at higher spls is also a nice result with a higher slope network.

Carl.

[BS Button]

I've listened to the popular AL-3's in my first pair of La Scala's and borrowed a pair of ALK's from Woodog one weekend (thanks Woo). I really liked the AL-3's, but the ALK universals took it to another level. If you want to crank 'em, just attenuate. Woodog claims they add a bit of air around the instruments and I agree. Wished I had some ALK's for my new La Scala's...

BS

[tidmack]

BS,

Do you know which version of Al's crossovers you listened to? Thanks

Jeff

[tidmack]

Jeff, Mark knows of what he speaks. I am finally ready to join the "partial ES" crowd. I've owned a pair of Al's Universals (some call them ALK Seniors) for a couple of years now that were custom-built with some premium caps.

Thanks Mark for clarifying what Al now offers. Like Carl, I think the partial ES would probably be my best bet for now. If anyone in the Milwaukee area is running these in a pair of LaScalas, I wouldn't mind hearing them sometime.

Jeff

[BS Button]

Just get these and be done with it...

[mark1101]

pretty

[RFP]

"The ES networks will improve clarity and imaging dramatically, especially at the higher volumes. This is where they shine. But......I will tell you they are not cheap. You should check out the ALK engineering website. All excellent designs. http://alkeng.com/"

Agree.

I would define higher volume as a indoor volume level that prevents having a normal conversation with out yelling.

Yup... I'm jumping onto this bandwagon, too. Speakerfritz nailed it (even though I find the improvement at "lower volumes" just as dramatic). I love these things!

Cheers,

Rob

[meagain]

I've listened to the popular AL-3's in my first pair of La Scala's and borrowed a pair of ALK's from Woodog one weekend (thanks Woo). I really liked the AL-3's, but the ALK universals took it to another level. If you want to crank 'em, just attenuate. Woodog claims they add a bit of air around the instruments and I agree. Wished I had some ALK's for my new La Scala's...

BS

BS - What year are your LaScalas and were the AL-3's stock? Cuz I wonder if the improvement you're getting with the ALK Universals is attributed more to the new caps in them vs. stock AL-3's that likely have older and probably less quality caps in them. I've read many posts that say they are rather equal to each other.

I love my stock AK-3's. It's exciting to know with better caps, they could sound even better. There's a white cap in my 1993 that says "Mexico" on it. [^o)]

[mark1101]

I can vouch that it is NOT the caps that make any ALK network sound better than the stock networks. In fact I have an all Auricapped pair of AK-3s wrapped up on my shelf that I would sell in an eye blink......because I will never use them again. I only keep them in case I need those cap values for other projects.

Meagain...I would gladly sell them to you. They are very nicely done and have all Auricaps. They sound better better than a stock AK-3. IMHO they are no match for any ALK network....even the Jrs. sound better to me. But if you want them....they can be yours.

Edit: I should qualify my post. Yes....you could technically build an ALK network with such poor caps that it could sound worse than a stock network. But both networks built with the same caps will yield the results I suggest above.....that it is the circuit primarily causing the difference in sound.

[tidmack]

Just to throw this into the mix: those that have heard LaScala II's, how do their new networks compare with some of the higher order offerings?

Jeff

[BS Button]

Just to throw this into the mix: those that have heard LaScala II's, how do their new networks compare with some of the higher order offerings?

Jeff

This is what I've been thinking, all along.

T