NOSValves Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Its not cheap! http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=13078&sct=music josh BTW how do you insert links that link? Yea it's not cheap but new well recorded 180 grams never are! I have a bunch of them but can't remember paying $50 for a single album yet! As far as the links I just copy them from the address bar or type them in and they show up as links. You using and Mac PC? If so I bet that is the problem. http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=13078&sct=music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Man you guys are going to make me spend $50 on an LP!! I hate this place some times!! No Gary do not send your copy I'd rather not be responsible for a mishap with someone elses LP. Thanks for the offer though. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 "I think the more interesting question for J.4knee would be if he had to settle on one set of amps with all variables like cost, size , appearance, overall sound and versatility considered which would he choose...." Actually that is a very good question. My auditions were in different systems and different rooms both used BBX pre though and one was demo'ed on Heritage the other of Ref. Given that datum to start from it would be a tough choice to make for sure. I adored the clarity the pCAT offered for sure but I also really liked the VRD in Ultra linear mode and the VRD in triode is also very clean sounding as well. I like the extra head room the VRD offers with UL mode. I know the pCAT's have, for lack of a better phrase, "overbuilt" power supplies so they can go to their max pretty easily and that can make them sound a bit more powerful. Yeah this would be a tough choice. One that I unfortunately do not have to make anytime soon[:'(] But I think for me I'd have to look in terms of versatile application and I'd might give a very slight edge to the VRD, but Id really love to hear a system bi-amped as I listed in my original post on a set of Jubs or maybe a set of K69/K510s and LS bottoms.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Craig, If it makes you feel any better, it's a 2-LP set. Originally it was a single but they added deleted tracks. Last time I checked it was available in both black and red. They sound the same but the red looks cool.[H] Speaking of bass, I recently acquired a Mobile Fidelity UHQR copy of The Pines Of Rome. Talk about bass! It shook the concrete floor in my basement like its never been shook before!! I can't wait to play that one in October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody_Mack Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 In some weird way, it is almost easier to clinically evaluate amplifiers when the music is NOT your favorite form. I agree with that. If it makes you turn your head and pay attention, the gear is doing something right. You are suddenly tapping your foot to music that just moments before you had no desire for. As has happened with me, moving up to quality electronics suddenly makes all genre of music sound better and desirable. I now listen to and am purchasing music I never dreamed I would like. (it couldn't be because I am getting older and not the die-hard rocker of days past [:^)] ) Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfandbark Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 After reading mdeneen's stray comments I poked some Billy Joel into my system... Man, am I in trouble. It's hard to even find the piano sometimes. "New York State Of Mind " sounds fairly good, but I'm hearing mostly vocals, sax and bass. The piano is hiding. Oh well, at least it's not my speakers, right?[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 In some weird way, it is almost easier to clinically evaluate amplifiers when the music is NOT your favorite form. I agree with that. If it makes you turn your head and pay attention, the gear is doing something right. You are suddenly tapping your foot to music that just moments before you had no desire for. As has happened with me, moving up to quality electronics suddenly makes all genre of music sound better and desirable. I now listen to and am purchasing music I never dreamed I would like. (it couldn't be because I am getting older and not the die-hard rocker of days past [:^)] ) Rick Just wanted to jump in and state I discovered the same. As the quality of the system has increased, the variety of music I listen to has broadened. To make it even more obvious, I have taken music I will listen to on my 2 channel system and tried to listen to it in the car or on someone else's stuff or even on headphones; the normal response is to turn it off immediately and question why I listen to that stuff. My wife has listened as well and offered the same response - most music is ok... until it is played on the 2 channel system and then becomes far more involving. Oh yeah, and I am still a die-hard rocker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 any piano piece will clearly and easily demonstrate amplifier dynamics bass to be the least useful predictor of good amplifier dynamics. Bass instruments are for the most part very easy on amplifiers, and predict almost nothing about dynamics, or other difficult and subtle qualities of amplifiers. The tough instruments are piano, woodwinds, acoustic guitar and anything that can be played pizzacato. That's where dynamic capabilities really live and die. . Mark has nailed it here ... there are practically No dynamic's to say, a String Bass ... all you can gain from that is , the bass equalization of the amplifier, if you will ... the true test, has 88 key's ... just ask any Tape enthusiast Saaaay, MD ... don't forget the Snare .... !!!! ear popping dynamic's there ....[] Thwack factor ....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Just a few stray comments here about listening to amplifiers---- Amps have no idea what genre they are playing! :-) Amplifier defects (or lack of) are present and can be heard no matter what you put into it. I also have a very different measure of "dynamics" than what is being discussed here - to each his own. I have never found the musical genre or musical tempo has anything at all to do with amplifier dynamics. Because amplifier dynamics is the measure of the instantaneous rate of change, and the ability to maintain the relationship between the smallest and largest signals without losing the small ones, just about any piano piece will clearly and easily demonstrate amplifier dynamics. Dead amplifiers (no matter how many watts they may have) simply can't reproduce a believable piano. Doesn't matter either how loud you turn it up. Dead is still dead, even at 120dB - except now it is deafeningly dead. Over the years, I have also found bass to be the least useful predictor of good amplifier dynamics. Bass instruments are for the most part very easy on amplifiers, and predict almost nothing about dynamics, or other difficult and subtle qualities of amplifiers. The tough instruments are piano, woodwinds, acoustic guitar and anything that can be played pizzacato. That's where dynamic capabilities really live and die. This kind of music can be found in any genre from New Age to Heavy Metal - and yes, even in "dinner jazz!" (Your amp doesn't know that you think the music is boring - it only sees the waveforms.) In some weird way, it is almost easier to clinically evaluate amplifiers when the music is NOT your favorite form. Well we will have to agree to disagree. I can easily put many an amp to its knee's with music that has well recorded slam in the bass department along with mid, high frequency instruments and vocals going on at the same time. I mean its fairly simple it's much harder on an amp to play 6 instruments along with vocals at once then one or two different instruments. The amp may not know what is playing but the listener surely does. You have repeatedly mentioned tone on a amplifier in the recent past. I say an amplifier should have a minimum of tone it adds to the signal yes all amplifiers will have some tonal quality of there own it's the nature of the beast but I would rather deal with tone else where in a high resolution system. Want a certain tone I find I'm better served to use different preamp to get it and let the amp just stroll along doing its job. Also it's not about just reproducing bass it's about reproducing bass with authority while still getting all the other frequencies to sound natural. Any amplifier can play bass properly within its power range yes, but can it play the mids and high without the bass sucking all the life out of things when the passages get congested with multiple frequencies and instruments. The more congested the passages the harder it is for an amp to reproduce naturally. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 whished I coulda got in on the initial PCat order , Mark ... just too many personal problems/ expenses right now .. don't forget one of your biggest fan's ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 any piano piece will clearly and easily demonstrate amplifier dynamics bass to be the least useful predictor of good amplifier dynamics. Bass instruments are for the most part very easy on amplifiers, and predict almost nothing about dynamics, or other difficult and subtle qualities of amplifiers. The tough instruments are piano, woodwinds, acoustic guitar and anything that can be played pizzacato. That's where dynamic capabilities really live and die. . Mark has nailed it here ... there are practically No dynamic's to say, a String Bass ... all you can gain from that is , the bass equalization of the amplifier, if you will ... the true test, has 88 key's ... Saaaay, MD ... don't forget the Snare .... !!!!Thwack factor ....[] I'm either a little surprised at this or don't completely understand the reference to bass predicting dynamics -- predicting where? The rest of the range? I can remember hearing bass passages with good dynamics in the bass in both classical and small-group jazz string bass solos with very subtle dynamic and tonal gradations. Perhaps this is more evident in notes reaching up toward the middle range. I do hear those qualities better with very good electronics, however. It seems to me that clarity from the bottom A-A (27.5 Hz to 55 Hz) octave of the piano requires great clarity and depth from the amp as well the speaker just to make pitch distinctions perceptible. My perception of good dynamics doesn't go down to 27.5, but that may just be limitations in how well I listen to that sort of thing. Snares represent something entirely different in my mind -- as instruments of "indefinite pitch," snares, cymbals, triangles and the like are massive aggregates of random pitches that have always seemed to me anyway as a huge challenge to electronics to reproduce cleanly. I've always assumed that's because the complex wave forms are much more difficult to keep sorted out and kept clean without piling on a lot of additional distortion because of all the unrelated pitches that make up the sound. The jazz string bass sound seems almost pure by comparison. Or am I just a step behind in understanding this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I can turn that just as easy. How is it harder for an amp to produce a single note rather then multiple notes at once? Back at you. I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that doing two, three or six things rather then one takes up more available resources in any context. Can you type with both hands and scratch your behind at the same time for instance? Preamps and sources to me have always had a much larger effect on the over all sound of the system in its entirety when any reasonably good amplifier is in use. This is the reason when SS folks are wanting to delve into tubes I have never argued that trying a quality tube preamp is the best first step in the chain. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Just to continue this jolly romp through testing I dont think there is a type or genre or music that can specifically test an amp per-say. What you can do is to attempt to evaluate how 2 amps in an otherwise similar system perform on similar pieces of music but even there would one piece be more of a giveaway than another? It is not impossible, of course. Certain pieces of music do appear to provide more of a pp to FF, fast to slow, single instrument to whole orchestra, cressendo to soaring single sring etc etc than others. Generally - if you really want to test out a whole system - source to room - my limited experience suggests you can do worse than Rimsky's Sheherezade - Reiner / Chicago / Living Stereo 4th movement. Any system that can come through that unscathed is, IMHO, a goodun! Assuming you do get a result and decide, as in this case, that one amp is better than the other I would further suggest that such a result would only be appropriate for the system under test. In another system the result might be quite different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Just a few stray comments here about listening to amplifiers---- Amps have no idea what genre they are playing! :-) Amplifier defects (or lack of) are present and can be heard no matter what you put into it. I also have a very different measure of "dynamics" than what is being discussed here - to each his own. I have never found the musical genre or musical tempo has anything at all to do with amplifier dynamics. Because amplifier dynamics is the measure of the instantaneous rate of change, and the ability to maintain the relationship between the smallest and largest signals without losing the small ones, just about any piano piece will clearly and easily demonstrate amplifier dynamics. Dead amplifiers (no matter how many watts they may have) simply can't reproduce a believable piano. Doesn't matter either how loud you turn it up. Dead is still dead, even at 120dB - except now it is deafeningly dead. Over the years, I have also found bass to be the least useful predictor of good amplifier dynamics. Bass instruments are for the most part very easy on amplifiers, and predict almost nothing about dynamics, or other difficult and subtle qualities of amplifiers. The tough instruments are piano, woodwinds, acoustic guitar and anything that can be played pizzacato. That's where dynamic capabilities really live and die. This kind of music can be found in any genre from New Age to Heavy Metal - and yes, even in "dinner jazz!" (Your amp doesn't know that you think the music is boring - it only sees the waveforms.) In some weird way, it is almost easier to clinically evaluate amplifiers when the music is NOT your favorite form. Mark Once again you are absolutely correct. As an owner of many exceptional acoustic guitars ( 71 Martin D28, Taylor 612ce, Taylor 12 string, and a couple of custom built acoustics) as well as an exceptional piano (Schimmel 610 Grand) I know the sound of these fine instruments intimately. I have always been acutely aware of the leap of faith that one must take in listening to audio versus the real thing and actually how poorly most audio systems reproduce this sound. The piano in particular is a unique blend of percussion and tone with infinite nuance that I find is rarely captured. The pCATS (in conjunction with the JM Peach and other associated pieces) are the best I have ever heard at accurately presenting these instruments. With the piano you can hear the individual notes in a chord not the combined mush that you tend to get with a lot of amps. Interestingly, when I put the pCATS in the system and was listening to Nina Simone, my wifes first comment was wow that actually sounds like your piano. (The sound, not the playing but you get the point. ) I think the string bass, at least on this Lp, is also a good test much for the same reasons you cite the acoustic guitar. Lots of nuance, staccato and tone modulation. Again the pCATS sounded as close to a String Bass as I have heard. Musical and realistic. Not boomy or uncontrolled. Simply amazing. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 So basically, no answer to either of my questions. As for not answering my simple question about what you think I mean by "amplifier tone," again you are now talking about preamps and sources and something called a reasonably good amplifier. Which again, has not one single thing to do with my meaning regarding amplifier tone. So, what possible reason do you have to bring up MY USE of the word tone (a few posts back), and arguing about it, when you are unwilling to even acknowledge what I meant by it, and then continue to offer explanations that totally unrelated? I don't get it, heh, heh! :-) But, at least I offered the opportunity to understand what you were talking about! I answered your main question with an equally silly question that has an obvious simple answer But as usually you avoid what is right in a persons post and try to pick apart the edges. Once again we enter debate stance. I also was pretty clear on my tone comments at least from my perspective. If you would like to explain your amplifier "tone" statements have at it. I personally would like to limit the amplifier as a tone device as much as possible. You prefer the triode class A sound in an amplifier and I don't... no big deal no two people will ever agree on all things audio. I agree that a quality class A triode amplifier indeed has it's advantage at the types of music that were used for these comparisons but when things get busy and complicated musically speaking ( I'm not talking from a pure volume stand point here) in my experience class A triodes amplifiers fall on there faces pretty fast doesn't matter if they are PP or SET. I've heard countless amplifiers from little vintage examples to 40 thousand dollar real triode heavy hitters both PP and SET with plenty of power and the basic character is always the same. They sound great at small 3 piece acoustics and Jazz but when ask to deliver some complicated music like big band, rock, swing or even blues they just simply congest up and everything seems to melt together. I find it very telling that every time your enter a room at a show with these types of amps the only music playing or even on hand is the type of music I'm referencing. Hey maybe your amps are an exception to this but I would have to hear it to believe it since I have never experienced it out of that type of amplifier. Hey you have shocked me before! I'm sure I will get the chance sooner or later. All I can do is share my own personal experience and opinion. I'm not going to get in some collegian debate about it. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I answered your main question with an equally silly question that has an obvious simple answer But as usually you avoid what is right in a persons post and try to pick apart the edges. Once again we enter debate stance. ----------------------- There was nothing silly about either question I asked. You either know what is difficult for amps to handle and why, or you don't. It wasn't a rhetorical question, or a debate question. It was an electronics circuit question, because that was the subject matter. The second question was out of politeness on my part. You make a post arguing about my specific tone comments, then when I ask you what you think I meant by tone, you won't answer, but provide a million other comments that are irrelevant to my meaning. Again, it's just common sense that if you are going to have some sort of discussion, which you apparently wanted to have by quoting me, then a discussion works best when we know what we are discussing. So basically, since I have no clue what you are talking about, I have nothing to add. And you know what? This has nothing to do with a "collegian debate" or any other debate. It has to do with nothing more than common sense and courtesy. Yup we all know that your the absolute end all of perfection. Talk about pompass self rightous post. Go back to your pointed marketing I knew I should of completely stayed out of this thread. I'm out of here. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted May 3, 2007 Moderators Share Posted May 3, 2007 Please take the personal arguments to private messages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Dam, just when the romper room was warming up[] Digital amp anyone[A] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dp1954 Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 MEOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Where's George? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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