Problem With Klipschorns and SET Amp Could Use Some Help

[mas]

MAS, I have a small brain so I don't know all the ins & outs of the argument. But as I understand things, in order for the caps to solve all problems, they must have a designer label on them and cost a considerable amount of money.

Someday I will figure it out,

-Tom

Oh, now I get it! Thanks!!!

Silly me, and to think that all this time that I thought it was the color that was responsible for the reponse!

{Hey, it does effect the rate of heating and cooling....and when all of them electron thingies get too excited I guess they forget to hold hands and...well, you get the idea...pure chaos! But wouldn't pink calm them down enough that they could focus on what they were supposed to be doing without getting all of the social conservatives or libs (like there is a dif other than right/left!) involved with trying to tell (coerce) them how to behave? I know, we could pass a law! That one of Ohm's and those of electrodynamics just don't seem comprehensive or stringent enough. Gee willikers, just think, we could tell them exactly how to behave in all sitchiations...We could even get them to recycle and pray and keep the noise down! Pardon me, I gotta call my Congressman...}

[][][][]

[Deang]

Where did anyone ever say that new caps, higher slope passives or tubes solves any and all problems? As for the caps, replacing old ones is a good idea, and generally, the more they cost the better the materials, construction, and measurements. Finding quality polypropylenes in all of the values without a designer label is somewhat of a challenge -- unless you buy a thousand at a time. I've found Mallory and Cornell Dubilier at a couple of places, but values are limited -- by the time you parallel them up to get what you need it costs less to buy the single Auricap or Sonicap. Mouser has some nice Vishays, they want $51.32 for the 10uF value. I wonder what the difference is between the $10 Mallory and the $50 Vishay -- it must be the designer label!

As for this thread, we don't automatically assume that a person doesn't know how to set up their Klipschorns. If the thread would have started with that picture I don't think a single person would have brought up networks -- which incidently was initially brought up by the poster.

I think I'm going to get out of the crossover business -- I don't think anything beats the sound of those old oil cans.

[mas]

The choice is simply between old caps and new caps, cheap caps and expensive caps? Such a small world we live in...

Or you could discover active crossovers and signal alignment as an alternative to some of the absolutely ridiculously expensive passives that so many run to buy.

Not only would it save some folks some money, but it might actually address some of the major problems fundamentally inherent in the Heritage designs.

[*-)]

[Deang]

It seems to me, based upon many previous claims heretofore presented over the years, that if you just went with new caps, higher slope passive crossovers and an all tube signal chain that you could overcome any problems presented by this scenario.

But as I understand things, in order for the caps to solve all problems, they must have a designer label on them and cost a considerable amount of money.

I was only addressing the above comments.

[mas]

It seems to me, based upon many previous claims heretofore presented over the years, that if you just went with new caps, higher slope passive crossovers and an all tube signal chain that you could overcome any problems presented by this scenario.

But as I understand things, in order for the caps to solve all problems, they must have a designer label on them and cost a considerable amount of money.

I was only addressing the above comments.

As so often happens here, now we are reduced to having to explain the joke. [*-)]

We have had many threads whereby owners of brand new speakers were admonished that in order for them to sound 'good' tnat the crossovers or caps had to be retrofitted! And even more where it is assumed that cap transplants were absolutely necessary - and I am not referring to old degraded caps!

We have also had folks post, complete with nifty pictures which were sufficient to convince some, that extreme slope passive crossovers/filters could resolve non-minimum phase situations. (Of course we still have learned(sic) folks here who still think the terms "minimum phase" and "non-minimum phase" are simply made up!!!!) and that IIR and FIR filters combine as posted in anything other than minimum phase conditions (meaning for those who are having trouble with this, that they fail to do so in non-minimum phase scenarios!). Hence in non-minimum phase conditions, changes in amplitude result in accompanying phase errors.

And one has to be totally obtuse to have missed the incessant Tube Taliban rant that maintains that ONLY tubes are adequate to drive low distortion horn systems. (And I wouldn't want to even suggest that these very folks who maintain this find SS with horns too sterile and analytical and yet desire the distortion characteristics imparted by tubes to offset the low distortion horn characteristics that they simultaneously laud! Catch the irony here???

And while either format can sound just fine, listening to the Tube Taliban eliminate the SS possibility is rather akin to asking the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz for directions as they posit their solutions with diametrically opposed logic.! We have low distortion of horns this way, and the 'soft clipping' of tubes that way!

But I find it even more fascinating how one person can interpret these myriad references (trends if you will) that abound on the forum in general, and which arose in various forms in this particular thread, personally. Calling Dr. Phil....

All in all, this thread is a prime case study that illustrates the predispositions expressed in many such threads.

And heaven forbid we should examine the fundamentals first before anyone, regardless of whom they may be, start in on crossovers, individual components, equipment topologies, or whatever! One only wonders how much longer this already embroiled thread would have continued had not the picture been posted!

What a hoot. And if one can't find the humor in this thread, maybe one should step back and become a bit more aware of one's presuppositions and problem solving procedure!

This thread ranks up there with the best of them!

I am almost wondering why the various camps have let a small thing like KHorns not being placed in the corner interupt their analysis of the problem!

Still ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [][*-)]

[PrestonTom]

".....

As for this thread, we don't automatically assume that a person doesn't know how to set up their Klipschorns. If the thread would have started with that picture I don't think a single person would have brought up networks -- which incidently was initially brought up by the poster.

..."

Dean, Of course you are correct and a picture would have been worth a thousand words.

Regarding the issue of expensive caps, I will admit that I am an old curmudgeon. They may be better. I guess my perspective is: "are they that much better". Whoops, that is probably an unanswerable question.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[seti]

OldTubeSound,

Have you put the khorns snug into the corners yet? Craig was spot on. Let us know how that works out.

[Guest " "]

I might read this if you can get it down to 25 words or less

[Old-Tube-Sound]

OK Klipsch fans here is the latest...I removed the ALK crossovers and reinstalled my original AA crossovers and just in that one move I got 35% higher volume before I hit distortion, so definately the ALK universal crossovers were a big part of the problem, next I'm going to try a pair of autoformers and see if I can squeeze out alittle more volume by letting the amp see 16 Ohms across the board instead of 8 and or 4 Ohms. OK the horns in the corner issue, I tried putting the horns directly in the corners when I first got them but on a 15 foot wall the focal point or the sweet spot if you will is to narrow, about 6 to 8 feet out from the center of the wall and that was to much in my face so I toed them out to put the sweet spot about center room 15 to 20 feet, I still have plenty of bass even though I have them out of the corners and having plenty of bass has never been my problem, the amp driving 4 Ohm speaks at higher volumes has been my problem. Keep in mind even though the amp will put out aprox. 6 watts before clipping on a scope, I never run the amp that high, I may run it 1 to 2 watts tops and thats pushing it before it distorts, normal listening level I'm probably running it 1/10 or 1/20 of a watt. I thought about putting a SS amp on the bottom but that idea doesn't excite me to much, I feel would always be adjusting the top and bottom to get the right blend for different types of music, besides its more of a challange to me to try to get the amp and speakers singing out of the same song book without any outside help.

[mas]

[*-)]

Seldom do I find myself at such a loss for words...ROFLMAO

I can't help but imagine a car flat on the ground, no tires or wheels, and the analysis of the problem with performance is that we need to change the windshield wipers.

I had honestly thought that it couldn't get any worse!

[*-)]

You may also want to change the interconnects as well.

[*-)]

aaaah...best of luck...

[seti]

OK Klipsch fans here is the latest...I removed the ALK crossovers and reinstalled my original AA crossovers and just in that one move I got 35% higher volume before I hit distortion, so definately the ALK universal crossovers were a big part of the problem, next I'm going to try a pair of autoformers and see if I can squeeze out alittle more volume by letting the amp see 16 Ohms across the board instead of 8 and or 4 Ohms. OK the horns in the corner issue, I tried putting the horns directly in the corners when I first got them but on a 15 foot wall the focal point or the sweet spot if you will is to narrow, about 6 to 8 feet out from the center of the wall and that was to much in my face so I toed them out to put the sweet spot about center room 15 to 20 feet, I still have plenty of bass even though I have them out of the corners and having plenty of bass has never been my problem, the amp driving 4 Ohm speaks at higher volumes has been my problem. Keep in mind even though the amp will put out aprox. 6 watts before clipping on a scope, I never run the amp that high, I may run it 1 to 2 watts tops and thats pushing it before it distorts, normal listening level I'm probably running it 1/10 or 1/20 of a watt. I thought about putting a SS amp on the bottom but that idea doesn't excite me to much, I feel would always be adjusting the top and bottom to get the right blend for different types of music, besides its more of a challange to me to try to get the amp and speakers singing out of the same song book without any outside help.  

PLEASE for god sake get false backs on them or put them in the corners as you are killing them They don't call them "cornerhorns" for nuthin!!!!!! Maybe find a way to modify the top half so you can move the mid and high horns to the sweet spot. I kinda hope your pulling our legs.

[Audio Flynn]

PLEASE for god sake get false backs on them or put them in the corners
as you are killing them They don't call them "cornerhorns" for
nuthin!!!!!! Maybe find a way to modify the top half so you can move
the mid and high horns to the sweet spot. I kinda hope your pulling our
legs.

============================

Corner limitations in my home are the main reason I went with Belles.

I got 35% higher volume before I hit distortion

Why do you try to get your amps to distort? Never been an objective I could buy into.

[mas]

"This highway leads to the shadowy tip of reality; you're on a through route to the land of the different, the bizarre, the unexplainable...Go as far as you like on this road. Its limits are only those of the mind itself. Ladies and gentlemen, your're entering the wondrous dimension of imagination. Next stop - THE TWILIGHT ZONE" R. Serling

OK Klipsch fans here is the latest...I removed the ALK crossovers and reinstalled my original AA crossovers and just in that one move I got 35% higher volume before I hit distortion, so definately the ALK universal crossovers were a big part of the problem, next I'm going to try a pair of autoformers and see if I can squeeze out alittle more volume by letting the amp see 16 Ohms across the board instead of 8 and or 4 Ohms. OK the horns in the corner issue, I tried putting the horns directly in the corners when I first got them but on a 15 foot wall the focal point or the sweet spot if you will is to narrow, about 6 to 8 feet out from the center of the wall and that was to much in my face so I toed them out to put the sweet spot about center room 15 to 20 feet, I still have plenty of bass even though I have them out of the corners and having plenty of bass has never been my problem, the amp driving 4 Ohm speaks at higher volumes has been my problem. Keep in mind even though the amp will put out aprox. 6 watts before clipping on a scope, I never run the amp that high, I may run it 1 to 2 watts tops and thats pushing it before it distorts, normal listening level I'm probably running it 1/10 or 1/20 of a watt. I thought about putting a SS amp on the bottom but that idea doesn't excite me to much, I feel would always be adjusting the top and bottom to get the right blend for different types of music, besides its more of a challange to me to try to get the amp and speakers singing out of the same song book without any outside help.

Presented for your examination: the Audiophile. A role wherein belief trumps all reason, logic and common sense.

Presented for your examination...in the Twilight Zone...

do do do do do do do do

[PrestonTom]

The suggestion of the False Back is a good one. There are other styles of false corners (or half corners) that might also be appropriate. Incidentally locating them on the longer wall (perhaps with a false corner(s) would still be preferable.

We are not beating up on you, but you seem to be persistent on this "amp thing," when speaker location with a nice snug corner is of paramount importance. Please indulge us and give it a try. The chat about amps is premature at this point.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[mike stehr]

No doubt......

[PrestonTom]

".......

Is it any wonder few people like posting here anymore?

......"

Actually, I think for a small amount of money and enegy, he is about to get a huge improvement in the sound from his Klipschorns. That is probably worth the wait. I would hate to think of someone spending money and time by swapping electronics when a pair of corner loaded horns were positioned incorrectly.

-Tom

[Audio Flynn]

Is it any wonder few people like posting here anymore?

Telling him all is well with his speaker placement for K Horn bass reproduction is dishonest and unrealistic. Truth is never a garunteed to be pleasant.

[Erik Mandaville]

It seems you found that the ALKs you were using previously had a little more insertion loss than the AAs. With such low power amplifiers, at least in my experience, that can become more of an issue.

I am also using home-built single-ended amplifiers, and designed a network that turned out to be more efficient in terms of observed/heard/measured (as in SPL) than the traditional autoformer-based Heritage networks (a picture is included). However, if you like the AAs, you might also like to try the standard type A, which, given your soldering and electronics craft ability, you could very easily make. If you want a couple of extra autoformers to experiment with, let me know and I'll send you two. I don't use them anymore, and would be glad to share if you wanted to make a type A.

Snugging the speakers into the corners really does make a difference, too.

Sounds like you're on the right track.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

"Sorry guys, my poste fell into the wrong sequence to be understood. Fergetit."

I understood.

Erik

[Deang]

Al ships the Universals set at taps 4 and X, which is down considerably compared to the settings Klipsch used. If you set the taps to 4 and 0 I think you'll find that the ALKs are just fine.

You need the walls behind the Khorns to complete the bass horn. Without corner placement response drops like a rock from 250Hz down. If you aren't going to put them into corners or build false corners for them, you should consider selling them and buying some LaScalas.