Welshstar Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Hi I posted about speakers and with the helpful feedback have now decided on a pair of Cornwalls, just a question of seeing whats out there used/new. The next question is source/amps, my music is rock/prog rock/jazz based. I love the musical fidelity stuff but again its to expensive to buy the gear i really like, im currently in Singapore on business and have seen a lot of nice looking chinese valve amps, id be very grateful for feedback on the following questions. 1 - I know the Cornwalls are very sensitive and would give volume at a reasonable amp wattage but would they sound ballsy ( sorry couldnt think of a better word ) with a low power valve integrated amp say 20 watts. Again its not volume im worried about its dynamics. 2 - Has anyone ever used one of these chinese made valve amps ? they look pretty good and seem to sound OK. Once again thanks for everyones feedback Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Robin Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Hello: There are a lot of us on here that us the Harmon Kardon 430, 730 and 930 units. The 430 is just 25 watts per channel; I cannot turn the knob past half way with the Cornwall's hooked up. It just gets too loud but sure sounds Great. Later Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 My experience has been that in order to get that real ballsy bass that you need a good solid state amp with high damping for the cornwalls to really shine their best. Of course you'll probably find just as many people claiming the opposite [] I've never played with the Chinese stuff so won't comment there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshstar Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 Hi What exactly are you refering to by high damping ? Could you give me an example of what amps would work well ? I think you are refrring to what id call a high current amp, something that doesnt run out of steam easily Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 High damping is the same thing as a low output impedance. Basically it's a measure of how well the amplifier controls the drivers, which is a larger issue for the LF than the MF or HF. Amps with low damping and high output impedance tend to get modulated by the driver itself, which comes from the back EMF generated by the driver (basically the motion of the cone acts like a generator and powers the amplifier). In non-engineering language, it's the difference between sloppy (low damping) and well defined (high damping) bass. The Crown D-75A would be a perfect example of high damping without huge power capabilities (which is what is often meant by high current): http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/d.htm I mention the Crown only because they so readily publish these kinds of specifications. There are all sorts of amps on the market though that will fit this bill. I guess the ultimate question is what kind of budget are you looking at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I've had a chinese preamp here in the house and thought it sounded fine. Now Dr. Who, good man that he is, is not a big fan of tube amplification. I, however, have become a big fan over the last couple of years. I think you will find plenty of slam with almost anything you drive Cornwalls with but the SS gear may be a bit "tighter" than tube driven speakers. One thing tube gear will do is take out a lot of the steel and grit that comes with all but the better SS That said, it won't take insane amounts of wattage to drive the Cornies. In terms of the Chinese stuff, I would probably search for a shop in Singapore that has a good selection, in other words, carries more than one brand and spend some time listening to their different brands/models. I would pick out the stores best speaker and use that exclsuively for all swaps so your not being confused by the different sounds of different speakers. If you have some music along which you know really well by all means make sure you play that and try to keep volume levels as nearly equal as possible. Also ask the saleman if he knows anything about the quality of the transformers and internal parts.; Good transformers can make or break a tube amp. I kinda presume most of these manufacturers use generic transformers but if they spec their own I'd probably take that as a good sign. Also if you're not doing lps but just sticking with cd's than you might also consider seperates which may cost more in total but may have better design and engineering. Once you get close use the "search" functions here and on Audiokarma and Audio Asylum to see if you can pick up any additional info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertop Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 For alot a years ran ss amps with a tube pre, but as of late going all tube. Just me, both sound good, problem being my hearig (today) prefers tube. As far as the chinese amps, sorry, no help here. Enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Now Dr. Who, good man that he is, is not a big fan of tube amplification. To be fair, I hold nothing against those that prefer the route of tubes either. It's definitely a different sound, but there's no reason tubes can't have solid bass if they were designed for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Get an intergrated TUBE amp .............. Scott, Fischer, Dynaco, etc. .............. will blow SS out of the water with 20 watts .......... Do you want Bass, or BOOM, there is a difference ................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornman Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Dr. Who, I looked at the Crown link you provided, & do not see a output impedence rayting or a dampening # listed. Perhaps I missed It, but either way what is a good impedence & dampening # to provide good effect? Cornman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I've got a Crown amp so I'm in the camp of "Crown Rocks" (and sounds great too) That said... if you were going to look at a tube amp, I'd suggest you not over look transcendent Sound amps. I had a little OTL amp (SE-OTL) and though maybe not enough power for you (sure wasn't for me) they do have some bigger brothers. The next tube amp I play around with will more than likely, be from http://transcendentsound.com/ Just a matter of picking your size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Tubes (again) A lot of audiophiles will argue about the sonic superiority of tubes over solid state. I am not one who believes that tubes are inherently better sounding. However, I do believe that the majority of low cost electronics sold today sound very bad and the sound has been getting worse for years. My belief is that the very best solid state electronics sound fantastic. Expensive monster amps will provide power, control and bass that you simply can not get from most tube amplifiers. However the sound of low cost and modest solid state amplifiers sound thin, shrill and harsh. The key to building a great sounding solid state amplifier is the power supply. Most low cost amplifiers and receivers have power supplies that simply can not keep up with music. Clipping is one issue but there are other issues as well. The majority of people believe they can't appreciate the difference in a good sounding amplifier and a bad one. I find this sad. I have often done tests with people and I find that almost anyone can tell the difference between a good sounding amplifier and a bad one. Not everyone can appreciate the difference between a $10,000 amplifier and a $40,000 amplifier but virtually anyone could tell the difference between the typical receiver and any high-end product. While we love high-end sounding solid state amplifiers, we love offering low-cost high-end equipment even more. We have been selling the SE 9 now for several years. The SE 9 is one of the best looking and sounding amplifiers available for its price. The SE 9 features several quality features that are not found in other cheaply manufactured amplifiers. We use high quality tubes, Alps volume controls, platinum coated switches and large gold plated connectors. Even so, the SE 9 is only $450.00 shipped to the US. We are now introducing another new single-ended tube amplifier. Like the SE 9 and SE 18, the new SE 6 features hand wound transformers which are have no mechanical noise. The SE 6 features a tube rectifier, Single-End (Class A) performance, Alps volume controls and a platinum-coated switch. The SE 6 is designed to provide the lowest cost high quality amplifier on the market today. The SE 6 provides six watts of single-ended performance. Some low-cost amplifiers today offer only two watts. Six watts is actually more power than most people need, particularly for a dorm, bedroom or office system. The SE 6 has two inputs - like the SE 9. It feature two volume controls to precisely match channel balance. The SE 6 is a beautiful amplifier and designed to provide years of music listening pleasure. Introducing the SE6 Specifications Integrated Amp Single End Class A Output Tubes 6L6GT (6P3S) X2 Pre-Drive Tube 6SL7 (6N9S) X1 Output 8 Ohm Frequency Response 25Hz-25Khz 2 inputs Dual Volume Control Max output 6 Watts at 8 Ohm Tubes made in Russia by Relacier who also made SOVTEK and SVETLANA ALPS Volume control from Japan Wood sides -- teak optional All Transformer is handmade with special shielding A view of the rear of the new SE 6 Another view of the beautiful SE 6 The SE 6 will sell for $395.00 shipped to the USA. Other locations will be charged the difference of shipping to the US. To introduce the SE 6, we are offering an introductory price of $350.00. Demand will be high so please order before now to insure we have availability for Christmas. http://norh.com/news.html I met Michael Barnes (with nOrh ) a few years back, at the Midwest audio fest in Lima, Ohio. (I can still taste those yummie kewpie burgers too!) Anyhow, the event was incredible and hanging out with Craig (Nosvalves who also makes a VRD great sounding amp, and also does repairs/ upgrades on HH Scott amps too) and Paul Parrot who is not on the forum but was really fun to hang out with in person. These are made / and or assembled in Thailand. The parts are accepted by most to be superior, and the results on various forums seem to be that many people agree and enjoy them for years and years. You asked for a suggestion... I would seriously check them out. My 2 cents!! This was the first time in my audio journey that I "got it "... hearing and experiencing a nice nOrh Tube Amp vs a cheaper solid state 2 channel system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Dr. Who, I looked at the Crown link you provided, & do not see a output impedence rayting or a dampening # listed. Perhaps I missed It, but either way what is a good impedence & dampening # to provide good effect? You gotta click on the datasheet link, but here it is for your convenience (Page 2): http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/136711.pdf Output impedance and damping are pretty much the same thing and are related by this equation: Speaker Impedance / Output Impedance So if you've got an 8 ohm speaker, and the D-75 with an output impedance of 0.015 Ohms, then your damping is about 500 (8 / 0.0015). If I had to put a number on it, I would probably say go for a damping factor greater than 200. A lot of your audiophile tube amps are gonna have damping factors in the range of 10-50. A damping factor greater than 1000 is generally considered excessive (unless you're trying to drive multiple speakers). Crown has an article on damping factor for those interested in reading a bit more: http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/damping_factor.pdf Btw, the output impedance / damping factor certainly doesn't tell the whole store about an amp's behavior, and I hope the original poster doesn't mind this getting a bit off on a tangent. It's just that when tight controlled bass is mentioned, this is a fairly good indicator of whether or not that will happen. You don't need as much damping for the MF or HF because those systems tend to be self damping and there isn't a lot of cone motion involved in the first place. It's a bigger issue when you've got that big woofer moving all over the place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Interesting article Dr. Who. Quite frankly I never even knew about damping and it's applicaiton to speakers and amps. However, this one sentence in the article gave me pause: "Also the impedence of the speaker cable also affects damping. Thick cables (with low AWG) allow more damping that thin cables (with high AWG)." Does this mean that if I want tighter bass with my tube amp I simply buy a good quality copper auto jump starter cable, clip off the ends, and wire it into my system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 http://store.solar-electric.com/wc--1-0.html It's easier to bend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Wire and other passive components in the signal path (like passive crossovers) only serve to reduce the theoretical maximum damping from the amp. By how much? Well if your wire has 1 ohm of resistance and your output impedance is 1 ohm, then your damping goes from 8 to 4 (half, ouch). If your amp has zero output impedance (ideal world case) and your passive crossover has half an ohm series resistance in it, then the damping on an 8 ohm driver is only 16! (yikes). This is one of the reasons I like to go with active crossovers....there's nothing inbetween the amp and the drivers except the wire, which is gonna maximize your damping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Do connectors on the ends of speaker wire further muddy the water? Would I be better off running twisted 12 gauge wire ends to the terminals of my amp and LS's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Hi I posted about speakers and with the helpful feedback have now decided on a pair of Cornwalls, just a question of seeing whats out there used/new. The next question is source/amps, my music is rock/prog rock/jazz based. I love the musical fidelity stuff but again its to expensive to buy the gear i really like, im currently in Singapore on business and have seen a lot of nice looking chinese valve amps, id be very grateful for feedback on the following questions. I love Musical Fidelity gear. I have one of their preamps and a cd player. I also have a CD Pre on the way for my office. Have you checked out AudioGon? Their used stuff is not that expensive (at least compared to new). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Do connectors on the ends of speaker wire further muddy the water? Would I be better off running twisted 12 gauge wire ends to the terminals of my amp and LS's? I think that might be overthinking the issue a little bit...though a bad connection can certainly have negative side-effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmelet Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Listening room is 24x18, will the SE6 or SE9 drive my Forte's adequately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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