JubScala?

[Edgar]

Be aware that a horn's polar response is only applicable to the "far field", while in a living room you are generally listening in the "near field". The coverage in the near field can be significantly different than in the far field. Where the near field ends and the far field begins is open to debate, but just understand that a horn is not like a LASER, where if you're not in the beam you don't see anything. The horn coverage varies gradually.

The best way to see if what you propose works is to try it, if you possibly can.

Greg

[Coytee]

Curt,

This is an old picture (notice the lack of dust [])

I just measured the whole width of the 402 and rounded UP to 40". This gives 20" as the centerpoint which is pretty close it seems.

I then turned it around and measured from the base to the current height (midpoint) of the driver: 13".

I then measured from the base to the top of the vertical mounting hardware: 22 1/2"

The height of the horn flanges is 25 1/2" Add in the hardware and you have maybe 26", divide by 2 and I see where the 13" comes from.

Makes me think this is close enough to go portrait. Maybe someone can find an error in my logic

This is with stock hardware, I'm sure something could be fabricated if this didn't work.

[curt248]

So are there any specs for nearfield performance. My seating position is only 12 ft from the wall or 10 feet from the speaker. Any ideas on which would be best for that?

Awesome info guys. Thanks so much.

[Coytee]

Only speculation on my part but with the Dx38 and signal alignment I would think both would be fine at that distance. Right now as I'm typing, I'm sitting on floor between mine. Maybe 7' away. Sound very good at "evening news" levels.

I even wonder if a passive would be ok at that distance.

[Edgar]

So are there any specs for nearfield performance.

I've never seen nearfield specs for any acoustical horn. Nearfield is usually not important for sound reinforcement.

Greg

[Chris A]

The coverage in the near field can be significantly different than in the far field.

I believe that the distance used to measure the K-402 performance is on the order of ~10-15 feet inside the Klipsch chamber in Hope (I'm sure someone here has the exact distance...).

Greg, I believe that I understand what you are driving at, but note that well-designed horn/driver units with not-too-undersized mouths will probably measure well in the near field like they behave in far-field. Where it gets tricky is where the horns cannot control their coverage pattern to keep the direct acoustic energy off the close side walls/ceiling/floor and diffract off of the speaker enclosures themselves. In this case near-field measurements can be limiting since you effectively have non-point acoustic sources. To take this to an extreme, think about dipole radiators and other speakers that are designed to splash their energy around the room (near field).

There is one more subject of importance here: time-alignment of drivers in a multi-driver (and multi-crossover) speaker. Most Klipsch Heritage owners talk about "minimum listening distance" (especially with the Khorn), but I find that that distance collapses down to a very short dimension when the speaker's drivers are time-aligned electronically via active crossover delays, and the horn's polar response coverage is controlled down to about 400 Hz. The Jub's minimum listening distance (empirically) seems to be only a couple of feet at most and is more correlated whether or not you are listening on-axis vertically between the hf and lf horns.

Chris

[curt248]

It seems like the 402's control much lower hz than the 501's even in portrait orientation. I leaning torwards them currently.

Is there any reason that the 501's might work better in my setup? Everything I read seems to point in the 402 is better for a lot of the important aspects vs the 501.

Other advantages of the 402's for me would be the ablity to add the jubilee bass bins later while matching the width of the 402's. I tend to like things bigger. I prefer my v8 car to my 4 cylinder. I race a 450cc motocross bike instead of a 250cc. I have a liter sportbike instead of a 600cc. I have a 120 inch screen instead of a 70 inch.

My room is 13ft 7in wide (If mounted in landscape the 402's would use up about 6 inches outside the room (not a big deal since there is only black theater curtains in that area and no solid door)). The depth of the room is 14ft and the listening area is about 12 feet spread across most of the width of the room.

[Coytee]

It seems like the 402's control much lower hz than the 501's even in portrait orientation. I leaning torwards them currently.

I would think from a practical point of view that the lower ability of the 402 would be the same benefit to you regardless of how it was rotated.

Other advantages of the 402's for me would be the ablity to add the jubilee bass bins later while matching the width of the 402's

Works for me

I tend to like things bigger....v8 car to 4 cylinder...450cc motocross bike instead of a 250cc..liter sportbike instead of a 600cc..120 inch screen instead of a 70 inch.

My room is 13ft 7in wide

OT: I used to have a Yammie YZ 465 when they came out in 1980/81 (the first version of it) and more recently here on the farm, I bought a 100% disassembled (4 boxes full of nuts/bolts/casings/wheels/screws....) 1983 Maico 490.

Nothing like cracking the throttle and scooting outta there!

Looking to me like you're essentially sold already, absent some factor coming in to show you why this is a bad idea. (I'm ignorant enough that I don't see any negatives)

and of course, Chrismas is right around the corner.... [6]

[DrWho]

Without a doubt, the K402 in portrait is going to outperform the K510 for your mains...especially given the close proximity of the sidewalls to your main speakers.

You could, however, get away with a K510 in the center channel position and I think that might even sound a bit better since it'll be more cohesive at the relatively close listening distance you're at. The loss of pattern control below 1kHz on the K510 won't be as big of an issue for the center speaker because the sidewalls are so far away, which means less of the uncontrolled off-axis energy is gonna make its way back to the listening position (versus the main speakers where the sidewalls will guarantee all that information makes its way back).

[curt248]

Where can I learn what pattern control and polar response mean?

I've looked a bit online, but didn't find a definition or explanation.

Dr. Who. Where did you go to high school? Streamwood?

Coyotee. A 500cc 2 stroke is just plain insane. I raced a cr500 once when my yz125 was broken. It was nuts. All it took was 1/4 throttle to clear jumps that I could never clear on my 125. The only problem was that the gyroscopic effect of the big piston wouldn't allow me to lean much and I could hardly turn compared to the 125.

[Islander]

The only problem was that the gyroscopic effect of the big piston wouldn't allow me to lean much and I could hardly turn compared to the 125.

I think you mean the gyro effect of the big flywheels on the 500's big crankshaft. In any case, it just takes more muscle and a bit more determination to make the bigger machine do what you want when you want it to do it.

Years ago, when Eddie Lawson and Rob McElnea were teammates on Yamaha's Grand Prix team, Rob was having trouble with corner entries on his 500 4-cylinder 2-stroke GP bike. Eddie gave Rob a helpful suggestion to forcefully initiate the turns, but when he tried it, Rob got spit off the bike.

As he described it later, "Eddie said 'Flick the *****!', but the ***** flicked me!"

EDIT: it appears that the word for "female dog" is not allowed on this forum, so you'll have to think it when you see those asterisks...

[DrWho]

Where can I learn what pattern control and polar response mean?

I've looked a bit online, but didn't find a definition or explanation.

Dr. Who. Where did you go to high school? Streamwood?

Coyotee. A 500cc 2 stroke is just plain insane. I raced a cr500 once when my yz125 was broken. It was nuts. All it took was 1/4 throttle to clear jumps that I could never clear on my 125. The only problem was that the gyroscopic effect of the big piston wouldn't allow me to lean much and I could hardly turn compared to the 125.

This book would be a good start:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9mAUp5IC5AMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=sound+system+engineering&source=bl&ots=vyjBwi_U89&sig=kogYo5gajthY33Y8TqL_mZLzzyk&hl=en&ei=fhLuTOrIBcOSnwfB5MyzCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

But I think this one is better:
http://books.google.com/books?id=sGmz0yONYFcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Acoustics+and+Psychoacoustics+of+Loudspeakers+and+Rooms&hl=en&ei=GhPuTPS_PInGnAfYmcCyCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The nice thing about google books is you can flip through and preview a lot of the content.

As far as highschool, that's random...I went to Waubonsie Valley in Aurora? You originally from Streamwood or something?

[curt248]

No my wife is.

Thanks for all the info.

I think I'm set on the 402's for now.

[curt248]

Picked up a dx-38 today. I'm on my way to jub-land. lol.

If anyone is thinking about making the jub-scala, there is not a need to get the dx-38 electronic crossover specifically. The dx-38 has been chosen by most for a few reasons.

1. It's the one that they used at klipsch when they tested the jub-scala so the file can be sent and loaded in the crossover with no messing with adjustments.

2. Most of the people who have made them purchased them since others here had them and could help troubleshoot if needed.

3. The guy I bought it from explained that it is an old crossover that has increasing value because of us (klipsch people wanting to do this mod). lol

4. The guy (Brian) also said that it was ahead of its time due to having a 24 bit processor and a 2 millisecond response time which is important now with hdmi cables and video processors being so fast that the sound could be delayed and get out of sync with the people talking in tv and movies. It used to only be the other way around where you would have to add delay to the sound to match the picture due to the picture taking so long to process. Now, sometimes it can be the other way around especially with some crossovers having around a 40 millisecond delay vs the 2 ms of the dx-38.

Any electronic crossover would work though. All you would have to do is look at the db gain or loss for each frequency (from the klipsch tests) and punch them into your new crossover. You would only have to do that one time. I imagine that would take somewhere between 10 minutes to maybe an hour at most.

Brian also said that a crossover with 6 outputs (vs 4 on the dx-38) would be really expensive due to the added proccessing power. I was hoping for one with 6 so I could buy only one crossover for the 3 front speakers as jub-scalas.

[Coytee]

so the file can be sent and loaded in the crossover with no messing with adjustments

Sooooooooo, now that you bring that up (and btw, congrats!) would you like me to send it to you? If so, send me your email address and it's on the way.

If your Dx doesn't have the disc with it, you can download the RACE program here http://www.electro-voice.com/product.php?id=50

Go to "downloads" and click on the RACE V3.10

If you want to connect it to your PC you will need a cord with a serial connector on one end. I bought a USB/Serial and it works like a charm. Or, you can simply dial it in manually. I'd personally suggest that at first to force you to mess around with it. Trust me, if Doc Who and Roy can do it, it's not hard. I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain it to them... []

[mikebse2a3]

Brian also said that a crossover with 6 outputs (vs 4 on the dx-38) would be really expensive due to the added proccessing power. I was hoping for one with 6 so I could buy only one crossover for the 3 front speakers as jub-scalas.

Actually the EV DC-One has 6 outputs and has much more capabilities on the input and output channels versus the EV DX38 and IMHO sounds excellent at a cost considerably less than the EV DX-38 that I also use.

The EV DX38's analog input/output level controls is a very good feature that makes it somewhat easier to optimize the gain structure of a system when these type processors are implemented into home systems using commonly designed consumer gear(especially for example when the amplifiers most consumers use in their homes have no level controls to adjust their input sensitivity and this has lead many users to have noise issues). For people using processors without level controls amplifiers with input level controls or properly designed attenuators used in front of amplifiers without level controls can also help optimize the gain structure of a system.

mike tn

[curt248]

I just looked at the ev dc-one. It does have 6 outputs but it only has 2 inputs. I'd need 3 inputs for the left center and right front speakers in two-way configurations. With the 6 outs you could put some kind of super tweeter on top of the k-401 though I suppose.

Is there anything reasonably price that would be able to take 3 inputs with 6 outputs for those 3 speakers to be done with only one crossover?

I'll be using my receiver for the amp (for right and left channels) and I'll have to buy an external amp for the center channel.

Any ideas?

How much does a used ev dc-one go for? I got my dx-38 for $450.

What should I use to optimize my in room subwoofer response? I don't have the 401's yet and want to play with the dx-38.

I downloaded something called an RTA analyzer for my droid phone. Can or should I use that or might I need to invest in a better microphone system vs. the phone microphone for decent results?

I bought a serial to usb connector from Fry's for $20. Is that a decent price (seemed high)?

Where can I get rca to XLR converters? I ended up buying a rca to big microphone jack and a XLR to big microphone jack. I'd prefer one step to transfer the signal.

[mikebse2a3]

Where can I get rca to XLR converters? I ended up buying a rca to big microphone jack and a XLR to big microphone jack. I'd prefer one step to transfer the signal.

For a cost effect option Google Hosa rca to xlr and you will find interconnects and/or adapters. Guitar Center or Musician Friends usually cary these if one is local to you.

Is there anything reasonably price that would be able to take 3 inputs with 6 outputs for those 3 speakers to be done with only one crossover?

You might check out the Ashly Protea 3.6SP

http://www.ashly.com/protea3.6sp.html

mike tn

[Islander]

Any electronic crossover would work though. All you would have to do is look at the db gain or loss for each frequency (from the klipsch tests) and punch them into your new crossover.

Sure, any processor would work, like any speaker or any amp would work, but the E-V Dx38 is a high quality good-sounding pro unit. It also has more EQ and delay units in it than some other processors. If you're going to the trouble of doing a JubScala conversion (or buying Jubilees), you're looking for high quality sound, so there's no point in cheaping out on a crucial part of the signal path.

Curt, you got a really good deal on your Dx. With the total number of Jubilee and JubScala pairs in home use probably numbering around fifty or so worldwide (anyone correct me if you have more accurate numbers), I doubt they're having much effect on the used Dx market, since there are thousands of the Dx38s around (and I think they're still in production).

If you get a second Dx for your centre speaker, you could use the second channel to drive a rear centre JubScala. If not, even if you only use one channel of the second processor, it's still an inexpensive way to get into high-end sound.

[DrWho]

For what it's worth, the Dx38 uses gain ranging to achieve its dynamic range specs, which more modern processors are able to achieve without gain ranging and the artifacts it creates. It's also not very impressive how the Dx38 converts its input from balanced to single ended and back to balanced again, and then the output goes from balanced to single ended back to balanced again. I've not messed with the newest Ashly units, but the Yamaha SP2060 is a good alternative to the dx38 and is a good example of a much more elegant signal path.