JubScala?

[IndyKlipschFan]

Marvel is good about that..

Upside down if your gonna use a sub anyway for HT, it does not really matter..

Make a top for the 510, no problem.

[curt248]

Wow. I just read this thread from the beginning. It's now 2:30am. There is so much good info here.

It sounds like the concensus is the k402 sounds better overall than the k510 and both are big improvements on the original la scala mid and high frequency components.

For $2000 you can get two of the k402's with drivers. I'm not sure if this is correct, but someone said they called klipsch and could get 2 k510's with drivers for only $600 total? That sounds like the deal of the century. Does this sound incredible to anyone else?

I can get a dx-38 for $450. That would take care of two la scala's. I could also consider the crown amp/crossovers too, but I'm not sure if I need two for 2 la scalas or if one will do. I guess those go for $400 new, but I'm not sure how much used.

Total price for a complete setup with dx-38 and k510's would be $1050.

Total price for a complete setup with dx-38 and k402's would be $2450.

That's a difference of $1400 vs K402's for, according to those who have heard them, much better sound than the stock setup and close but not quite as good as the k402's.

Now what to do? I could do the $1050 very soon, but the $2450 would take some time (maybe 4 to 9 months). I'm very happy with my current sound setup.

Opinions guys?

Oh with the 510's I could also get a crown or another dx-450 (the guy has a few) and a single k510 ($300) for another $750 and have 3 mini jub-scalas for the left, center and right channels of my home theater.

btw since I have a good musical sub (Epik Empire (dual opposing 15inch woofers with 600watt continuous and 1500watt peak 130lb, 130db at 80hz)), I may never need the bottom of the jubilee right?

[Coytee]

For $2000 you can get two of the k402's with drivers. I'm not sure if this is correct, but someone said they called klipsch and could get 2 k510's with drivers for only $600 total?

My understanding would suggest that you either misread something or someone else did.

I'm not speaking for Klipsch, for any accurate answers you really should contact Roy.

That said, several years ago, the K402/driver/stand were roughly $1,000 each and the K510/driver (and no stand) was about $750/each (as I understood it)

So, that would imply that you're looking at a $2,000 vs $1,500 question. I might be wrong. Regardless... in looking at your setup, I would think a 510 would be best for the center and arguably for each side as well (because of the right side limitations)

Realize that the K402 is a touch wider than the LaScala is tall so if you have room on your LaScalas to set ANOTHER LaScala sideways, then you'd probably have room for a 402. If you don't, then...you don't! (note my avatar picture)

[Coytee]

Well, the avatar is angled... here's a straight on shot

[garyeanderson]

Thanks for the input, Shawn. I called Klipsch up earlier today, and the k-510/k69 combo is $600 for the pair, so reasonably affordable. My plan is to stay passive, and try one of Al's gentle slope x-overs (AP12 series), which would allow me to adjust the high end by using the various autoformer taps. The SET crowd seems to like the synergy of SET w/ the GS, as opposed to the ES. As I'm an SET guy myself, and don't listen at more than moderately loud levels (and that's rare), I think the GS's would be fine. Just a matter of ordering the bits and pieces, and solder the mess together. I'm certainly open to suggestions, though.

Hi Curt

I think that this is the quote that you are refering to. I have read it with much interest too. The way I have read it,

I think it reads

"k-510/k69 combo is $600 for the pair"

The pair being the k69 driver and a k-510 horn, not a pair for stereo reproduction. I wish/hope I was wrong as that would be affordable as you say. The leap from $600 to $2000 is a lot, the jump from $1200 to $2000 for the k69/k-402 doesn't seem that extreem.

[Coytee]

"k-510/k69 combo is $600 for the pair"

The pair being the k69 driver and a k-510 horn, not a pair for stereo reproduction. I wish/hope I was wrong as that would be affordable as you say. The leap from $600 to $2000 is a lot, the jump from $1200 to $2000 for the k69/k-402 doesn't seem that extreem.

We have a winner. Just for the record, the numbers I used (about $750 for the K510/69 and $1,000 for the K402/69) are numbers that we're asked to use publically. Since some/most people will be able to buy these for a number that INCLUDES any taxes and shipping (notice, I said some/most, not all) they specificially asked us to use these numbers when discussing publically.

This way, if they can get a pair to me for say, $1,800 BUT, shipping the same pair to "Nowheresville, Montana" costs someone an even $2K, they still have some wiggle room. If the person in Montana expected $1,800 and was charged $2K they'd perhaps feel a little screwed.

I have little doubt that for 90% of any buyers, the numbers I stated will be high however, that is why anyone/everyone who has a serious interest in walking down this path, really needs to make contacting Roy one of their early steps once they start the process. This is an accomodation being made by Roy to create this special order (K402/K69 combo) and as anything, their prices are subject to change.

Given the cost difference of the two of them, it is to me, a very easy jump to simply get the 402 however, one certainly must have the room for them and if that room isn't there, then the 510 is an excellent 2nd choice.

[Blvdre]

That misinformation was from myself. I believe it was a mis-understanding; I asked the service rep for pricing on a stereo pair, horns and driver, and he replied $600. The concensus is that the rep either thought he was quoting a single horn/driver combo, or the wholesale price for a stereo pair (thinking I was a dealer). In any event, disregard the quote, as it does not apply to the retail cost of a stereo pair.

[curt248]

Thanks for the info guys.

I too was looking at the space I have in my room and am at a quandry. I, for some reason always thought I could put the k402's in portrait instead of landscape. If I could use them in portrait, I would only need more verticle space. That would work with no issues. Placing them in landscape would require me to move the screen a little to the left and possibly have the 402 flush with the inside of the speaker and overhanging on the outsides. I wonder how silly that would look.

There was a discussion about putting the 402 in portrait and whether it would sound good.

My question would be if a 501 in landscape would sound better than a 402 in portrait. I'd prefer to buy the 402 based on everyones favorable reviews of it.

I'd also like to get the 402's for future proofing. Later I'd like to build a theater in the basement and I may end up going with the jubilee bases since I'd have about 18 feet of width in my design.

I suppose I could buy two 501's for the left and right fronts and then buy one 402 for the center. The center 402 could be set on the floor next to the la scala base bin and pointed up a bit. I currently have my center la scala on it's side and its fantastic. I'm sure it wasn't designed to sound good like that but it does. I guess a lot of this stuff is subjective and based on expectations.

My expectations would be for much better sound vs standard stock la scalas. I'm guessing I'd get that however I set up the 402's or 501's.

I could also sell the 501's when I shifted over to the 402's.

What do you guys think? Would 402's in portrait sound better than 501's in landscape?

[Coytee]

I'm no expert so I'm probably wrong.

I would wonder/speculate if you could put the 402 in portrait mode, aimed at your listening position and perhaps add some room treatments to control/fix the unintended bounces off the ceiling/floor?

I am also wondering if Steve has both horns (he's also in/near Chicago). I know he's got the 402's and I'm thinking he's got a 510 as a center on his Belle.

When I get to work I'll send him an email to this thread, perhaps you can get a chance to hear them yourself.

Oh.. another thought.... the 402 comes with the mounting hardware (tray to stand on). It's already mounted and is plug/play ready. Just yank it out of the box, set it, wire it and let it go. If you moved it to a portrait orientation, I think you could use the same hardware. I just looked behind mine and it's possible the vertical standards might not be long/tall enough. Some measuring would help there. I'll try to do that later tonight when I get home.

[Edgar]

Coincidentally, I was just discussing exactly this idea with a friend. My thought is that, at least in a living room situation, the horizontal beamwidth is limited by the room walls anyway, so it is more important to have tight beamwidth control in the vertical direction. Furthermore, a CD horn in portrait mode, in the corner of a room, might be a pretty good approximation to a line source.

There is precedent for this here.

Greg

[Chris A]

In its normal (landscape) orientation, the K402 horn is going to get about 50 degrees of coverage in the vertical dimension and about 100 degrees in the horizontal. This horn will hold that pattern to well below the typical crossover point (i.e., below 400 Hz).

[8-|]

Chris

[curt248]

I'm not sure I get what the degree's mean. Would 100 degrees by going backwards a bit? I'm thinking that 90 degrees verticle would be straight up? In this line of thinking 45 degrees out to the sides would be able to cover my entire listening area.

What would be the disadvantage of having the 100 degrees verticle? I know you mentioned possibly using some sound treatments on the ceiling to control the bouncing soundwaves.

[Edgar]

I'm not sure I get what the degree's mean. Would 100 degrees by going backwards a bit? I'm thinking that 90 degrees verticle would be straight up? In this line of thinking 45 degrees out to the sides would be able to cover my entire listening area.

No, a 100° beamwidth means ±50°. Ninety degrees vertical would be 45° up to 45° down.

Greg

[curt248]

oh ok, I get it now. I better go and check if that will work. I'll just measure 25 degrees from the edge of each la scala (since vertically the 402's are about the same width).

Does anyone know the spread of the original la scala's vertically and horizontally?

How different is the sound at the edges of the spread?

Oh yeah and that's exactly what Steve has. I bought my center la scala from him. I've got to go back there now and listen to his setup. I didn't want to here those jubilee's until I was getting ready to upgrade.

[Edgar]

How different is the sound at the edges of the spread?

The beamwidth is defined by the angle at which the response is down by 6 dB.

Greg

[curt248]

I just measured and I will have enough beamwidth to cover all 4 of the front theater chairs completely with 22.5 degrees. That even leaves 2.5 degrees to spare in portrait mode.

I also measured out 36 inches wide for landscape and as long as the horns are only 36 inches wide at the face and angle down to a point at the driver, I just might be able to squeeze them into the room without encroaching on the screen.

I also measured at the back of the room and I think if I move my chairs forward about 6 inches I can fit in 2 more la scalas for rear speakers.

I'll have to figure out if they can be mounted vertically now. This is very exciting.

[curt248]

The cinema brochure spec for the K402 list:

Horizontal: 90 degree (+/- 20 degree) 220Hz to 14kHz

Vertical: 60 degree (+/- 15 degree) 600Hz to 18kHz

mike tn

I see that the horizontal stays down to 220hz, but the vertical only goes down to 600hz.

What difference would this make for the la scala. I think the la scala bass bin goes up to 500hz. In vertical orientation would the 402 be missing the 500 to 600hz sound?

What is the specs for the k510? Would the 402 in vertical (portrait) orientation still be better than the k510 in its normal landscape orientation?

[fyrpwr]

Here is my 510/k69 Belle as a center channel

[curt248]

Thanks. I think it's time for me to hear those Jubilee's.

I wanted to wait until I was at least considering an upgrade.

My setup sounds much better now with the la scala center of yours and some tweaking of crossover points and audissey runs.

I think I know enough now to talk about the difference between active and passive crossovers and between the 402's and 510's.

I'd really like to see that bike again too.

[mikebse2a3]

I see that the horizontal stays down to 220hz, but the vertical only goes down to 600hz.

Keep in mind these specs are stated within a +/- 15 degree for the vertical spec centered on 60 degree and actually the vertical polar response of the K402 widens gradually to only about 100 degree by 400hz. This is still tighter than a K510's horizontal which is about 150 degree by 400hz.

What difference would this make for the la scala. I think the la scala bass bin goes up to 500hz. In vertical orientation would the 402 be missing the 500 to 600hz sound?

Not at all. It only means that as the frequency goes down the polar response is beginning to widen.

What is the specs for the k510? Would the 402 in vertical (portrait) orientation still be better than the k510 in its normal landscape orientation?

The K510 begins to loose it's polar control in the horzontal by 600hz and the vertical polar control by about 1500hz.

When it comes to polar control the K402 is clearly the superior horn in both the vertical and horizontal response.

One of the more important reasons to want a horn that maintains it's polar control at all frequencies that it will be asked to reproduce is how it integrates with the room in a much more consistant and predictable manner. What this means in the real world is the direct and indirect sound is more consistant tonally and that more listeners with their different positions in the room will experience the same tonal balance versus a loudspeaker system that has uncontroled polar response.

As to the question of the K510 versus the K402 used in the portrait position I believe this could be a resonable option that if I had the need to do I would probably pursue myself. I would also realise that as with all loudspeakers I would most likely need to work with the room's acoustics to acheive the best performance possible from the system.

mike tn