JubScala?

[jwc]

Upsizin' the top horn.

jc

[IB Slammin]

............Of course ....my wife will be meeting him with the dolly....I'm at work............

Pipester,

Man, I would pay to see the look on Wendy's face when she see's the size of those boxes! [][

Bet they will be snug in storage before you get home.[:'(][]

tc

[Chris A]

jc,

Makes a lot of sense to go that way--are these 2 channel or part of a HT?

Chris

[jwc]

That's a good one tc. There in my garage. Got home in time for the save.

2 channel..set up in two different rooms.

One room La Scala 2's

The other one......well....working on it.

jc

[Marvel]

jc, are you going to sell the 510s?

I would imagine, like most things, that newer manufacturing techinques could greatly improve the performance of a Smith Horn. Although the wood ones look beautiful, one made out of the same material as a K402, would be much cheaper to make and easier to get within the specs you want.

On the flip side, having the 402 on cabinets in my living room wouldn't bother me much. It is about the sound. My hat's off to Roy for the excellent work he does. As long as it all moves forward.

Attaching the whole article on the Smith Horn... the first ones were very crude. The septa (Smith calls them islands) weren't symmetrical, like most are made now.

Bruce

Smith_Horn_AE_Article_1951_sm.pdf

[DrWho]

Hey JC,

How would you compare the 904-LF to the Lascala II LF and the Jub LF?

[jwc]

Yes the K510's are for sale. This is in process as I'm going to rebox them up this weekend and get shipping estimates to a buyer.

Mike....Mike...Mike........ shame on you! How would you compare the 904-LF to the Lascala II LF and the Jub LF?

Are you trying to make me take a stand? I might catch heat for that...you are setting me up. I'm quite sure you are aware of my tastes when it comes to bass. I think we see eye to eye on this one a little.

But is it a good question...considering I'va had several speakers in the same position with the similar electronics over the last four years. This would include KG5.2, Cornwall, TallCorns, Cornscala, Ls I and II, dbb, jubilee, jamboree, and now KPT-904. Shame I haven't stuck some khorns in there for a comparison. Also shame my wife won't let me put my MWM's in there.

The speaker that was there for the longest length of time was the dbb's. Go figure.

I really can't give a solid opinion of the KPT-904-LF yet as it hasn't had the appropriate setup. There is no official network (non behind screen) for this and just piddled with it. I can't Bi amp where they are located w/o making the room look like pooh....trying to sell my house you know. But with the hack job I've got going right now...they resemble my late dbb's very much. Bass guitar friendly for sure. They so far don't dig quite as deep as the dbb's I had. I don't want to say much more until I mess with them some more. I will leave further comments out regarding other DIY bass bins. But I consider my dbb's as similar to the KPT-904-LF.

The big surprise of the bunch is the LS II's. I'm still very impressed with this speaker. I had LS I for quite a while and these LS II's are different in the bass department. If in a corner....and if "room lucky", they can dig "deep enough". There is some thwack now and then that still surprises me. There is NEVER a boom. But sometimes I like Boom.......Try "Pimp Juice" by Nelly.

The jub clones were great and definately dug deeper than la scalas. I've heard jubs at other places too you know. The Jubs are the best at drum kicks easily. That was the one thing that my dbb's couldn't do as well. The have some grunt to them that the la scala won't do but not as much grunt as the dbb's. However......I've always said this and I know it makes people unhappy...but there is a slight boom to the jub. Now this isn't sloppy bass reflex boom...but it is there. I don't look at the jubilee bass bin as sounding like a la scala but lower. NO. The way it resembles a la scala to me is that the bass is coming at you...unlike a Khorn. This is good. The bass is not quite as "tight" as the LS II but more tight than my dbb's were. The dbb's were the grunt masters. I also found that moving the jubilees out of the corner does drop off some low end.

I really can't say what I like the best. The jubilee covers the octaves top to bottom very well and would probably be what most would love on this forum. Definately the best at drums. They are great. I may buy some or build some more in the future.

BUT...as you know....I'm a bass freak. With what I listen too...in the end I would throw a subwoofer in the mix with the LS II or the Jubilee. So the Jub Scala idea is a good one and use dual KPT-884's as "stereo subs"!!!!

I am hoping the MWM's would remove any potential compromise other than being HUGE.

Shame on you Mike!

jc

[DrWho]

haha, thanks JC []

One quick question based on your last
reply....is it possible that the difference in "boom" you hear is
simply the difference in low frequency extension? The Lascala is "good"
to like 90Hz, the Jub to like 50Hz, the MWM to 40Hz, 904LF to 40Hz, and
I bet you were getting down to like 35Hz with your dbb. And just cuz I
know those numbers might stir things up, I'm really only talking about
where the systems are flat - I know the rolloff behavior is very
different on all of them...

Anyways, I guess the real question is
do your recordings have boom on them? Cuz if they do, then your
speakers 'should' be reproducing that.

Ya know, if you're
seriously contemplating the MWM, I think you could design yourself a
bass horn that digs even lower in the same footprint...I dunno how
necessary going lower is, but it should improve the performance over
the passband that you're interested in (since right around the rolloff
point, most systems start acting funky). Though stereo 884 with the
Lascala II LF would be pretty intense too...

[jwc]

I don't know if it is the recordings or not. I just seem to notice it with the jub. Maybe it is "accurate" reproduction...don't know. I have heard general desciptions of bass horns sounding "woody"....I'm not sure if that is the same or not.

Yea....I don't want to stir the pot either.

Since the MWM is 1/2 space....yes the lower extension with the same footprint is possible. The problem is the construction of such a thing. The panels are big and I'm sure I would get one heck of a backache putting it together. On paper....that would make an interesting project...among others I haven't finished. In the end....it's always like....hmm...I could have a smaller 70-80Hz bass horn with some subs just playing 80Hz and below or have a monster bass horn to eliminate the sub. Some may feel the some subs are better at playing 80Hz and below vs a bass horn designed also to hit out to 500Hz or greater. Don't start a riot with this please.

I have 2 sets of the MWMs to where I could have them as "fronts" and "surrounds" with a "jubscala" center. BUT what the heck......insane...I would be laughed at more than applauded. So the smaller bass horns with subs could end up being the ticket...of course...the disease may never end and I just keep changing stuff.

Let's not forget about the KPT-415-LF quad 15-inch bass unit....who has heard that?

jc

[Chris A]

...Some may feel the some subs are better at playing 80Hz and below vs a bass horn designed also to hit out to 500Hz or greater. Don't start a riot with this please...

I didn't expand on the comment "it makes a lot of sense" : I think your argument above is pretty much where I believe you are headed. If you are going to use a sub anyway (with its attendant power compression and harmonics) in a HT-like setup, why have such a large lf bass bin as the Jub lf? The KPT-942-T has higher sensitivity than other direct radiators, the better to keep up with the K-402/K-69 mf/hf section. Just seems to make a lot of sense. Additionally, it takes up less room and is probably a lot less manpower intensive to build than the lf Jub horn.

A lot of folks like the higher THD of direct radiator bins - just read all the threads on the Servodrive BassTech 7 and ContraBass and why they get trashed (i.e., people push them until they can hear the distortion since they had less than their competitors, but then wind up breaking the drive belts).

Chris

[jwc]

"A lot of folks like the higher THD of direct radiator bins"

There's just some music that I prefer some crude and angry bass (w/o getting sloppy...is that possible?).

jc

[IB Slammin]

Todays exchange has been interesting to me.

An old philosopher once described audio as "It's all about compromise". (or was that grasshopper?)

Chris,

........"A lot of folks like the higher THD of direct radiator bins"..........

I think that many compromise and put up with some THD for the Impact delievered from direct radiators. I think that many compromise Impact and deeper LF for less THD with horn loaded bins.

I kind of thought that the Jub bin did well in both areas.[] JMHO

tc

[Islander]

To get really deep bass from a horn system, the horn has to be huge. Even the $229,000 five-way MAGICO Ultimate system uses a direct radiator for its low bass section. A direct-radiating sub that easily goes down to 25Hz or lower doesn't have to be that big or expensive and can combine well with an otherwise fully horn-loaded system.

Info and pix here: http://sixmoons.com/industryfeatures/magico/magico.html

A little more info:

Standing almost 8 feet tall and weighing over 800 lbs each, the all-aluminum, horn loaded, 5-way active MAGICO "Ultimate" is designer Alon Wolf's latest and most ambitious statement. The 2" thick faceplate with 8" and 20" midrange tractrix horns are machined from solid blocks of 6061-T aircraft grade anodized aluminum. The aluminum surface has a unique treatment that imparts a subtle pearlescent glow to the finished metal. The faceplate houses the upper and lower midrange and high frequency compression drivers, each of which weigh over 50 lbs and have a sensitivity greater than 110dB/W/m. Each trapezoidal midbass horn is constructed of half-inch aluminum reinforced by 56 precisely machined ribs that are hand-welded by skilled craftsmen in Northern California. The low end is handled by an 88dB/W/m sensitive custom Aura 15" featuring a high-energy neodymium magnet structure and a 4" edge-wound aluminum voice coil allowing a 2.5" peak-to-peak cone excursion. Overall frequency response is from 25Hz to 25kHz.

[DrWho]

Is it possible that some of the distortions on the studio subwoofer were intended to be present during playback? Like if your studio monitoring system is +80dB from 4kHz to 8kHz and you make a recording sound great on the system, then it's gonna sound like crap on your system at home with a flat frequency response...Studio engineers are always spending a lot of time referencing the mix, but it gets a lot harder when distortion gets involved...

Another thing to consider is that control rooms tend to be smaller than your living room, which means way more room gain on the bass...requiring a subwoofer system that is not only flat, but perhaps a bit boosted in the low end? It's even worse if the recording was intended for car audio playback (where the cabin gain is insane)...

[Islander]

And here's us thinking that flat frequency response would give us what the recording engineer was hearing and presumably wanted us to hear...

[Chris A]

Todays exchange has been interesting to me.

An old philosopher once described audio as "It's all about compromise". (or was that grasshopper?)

Chris,

........"A lot of folks like the higher THD of direct radiator bins"..........

I think that many compromise and put up with some THD for the Impact delivered from direct radiators. I think that many compromise Impact and deeper LF for less THD with horn loaded bins.

I kind of thought that the Jub bin did well in both areas. JMHO

tc

A couple of things:

1) I believe Mr. Fourier. The "impact" you refer to translates for me to relative drive force/mass for the amplitude of the driver diaphram movement. Build-up response is what I think of when you say "impact". Horns typically have a less build-up response because the diaphram doesn't have to move as far. The horn itself is an antenna that matches the electrical impedance of the amplified music signal to the air's acoustic impedance, thus increasing efficiency of the transmission, and simultaeously decreasing the required amplitude movement of the driver.

2) I believe Messrs. Fletcher and Munson. I think a lot of people listen to second harmonic distortion in low bass (i.e., particularly below about 40 Hz) and think that they are listening to "deep bass". I believe they might feel the fundamental, but hear the second harmonic (unless it is unbelievably loud - above 110 dB). This is often perceived as "good bass" and is closer to what I mean by "THD of direct radiator bins". I don't think most people realize how pervasive second harmonic "deep bass" distortion is heard and accepted as "pure" bass. It isn't "pure" but it may be enjoyable to listen to particularly for certain types of music - unless you listen at 110+ dB levels all the time. I know I don't.

In organ design--real organs, not electronic ones--many stops are intentionally doubled (i.e., are voiced with the octave rank above--in parallel octaves) because it is perceived as pleasant to the listener. This isn't bad, it's just not well understood that this is happening. My comment about the ServoDrive BassTech 7 and ContraBass units was meant to be an integral part of the discussion. This phenomenon is interesting vis-a-vis loudspeaker design.

Chris

[ClaudeJ1]

The big surprise of the bunch is the LS II's. I'm still very impressed with this speaker. I had LS I for quite a while and these LS II's are different in the bass department. If in a corner....and if "room lucky", they can dig "deep enough". There is some thwack now and then that still surprises me. There is NEVER a boom. But sometimes I like Boom.......Try "Pimp Juice" by Nelly.

The jub clones were great and definately dug deeper than la scalas. I've heard jubs at other places too you know. The Jubs are the best at drum kicks easily. That was the one thing that my dbb's couldn't do as well. The have some grunt to them that the la scala won't do but not as much grunt as the dbb's. However......I've always said this and I know it makes people unhappy...but there is a slight boom to the jub. Now this isn't sloppy bass reflex boom...but it is there. I don't look at the jubilee bass bin as sounding like a la scala but lower. NO. The way it resembles a la scala to me is that the bass is coming at you...unlike a Khorn. This is good. The bass is not quite as "tight" as the LS II but more tight than my dbb's were. The dbb's were the grunt masters. I also found that moving the jubilees out of the corner does drop off some low end.

JC, I'm pretty sure the Jub bass bins behave similar to a LaScala in the middle of the field, pointed at the sky. I have curves that show this, but when you put the Jub in the corner, it's better than a Khorn..........BUT, dude what are you waiting for? I agree with you completely about the bass coming at you! I spend 30 years with Khorns that way and I'll never go back. My MWMs bottoms below the LaScals just do some major thunder on drums. Try the Chesky sampler #2 sampler with the kid mike 3 or 6 ft. away cranked up. A blindfolded musician friend SWORE that was a real drum kit in the room. Get those bad boys out of the garage and plug them in!!

[jwc]

Claude.

To me a curve only tells part of the story. The "presence" or sound of 200Hz from one speaker may look similar on curve but differ subjectively to my listening.

I agree the jub has better representation of a lot of categories vs the LS 2 bass bin.....but I'm still surprised off and on with the speedy, hard-hittin bass of the scala.

Of course the MWM is the bomb I'm waiting to setup but My wife may drop a Bomb on me if I put them in my house right now. She just had a healthy freak out session last night when I put a K402 on my KPT-904-LF. I doubt sliding a MWM under the K402 is a good idea right now.

jc

[jwc]

Which is more eye candy........this..

[jwc]

or this....