Khorn v Jubilee

[consistent]

Hi All,

I'm thinking of selling my '04 Khorns and getting a pair of Jubs with an active network. I'm not sure what the stats are on the Jubs and most importanly what they sound like when compared against the Khorns. I do know how well the Khorns sound with a tractrix mid. I'm not technically minded and let my ears do the testing, can any one help with some info? Do they require corners?

Cheers

[Cut-Throat]

Rule #1 in Audio - Never, ever buy a speaker without listening to it first!

Rule #2 in Audio - When it is impossible to listen to the speaker you are considering buying, don't buy it.

Ask me how I know this and I'll tell you about my $3000 speaker 'audition'

[consistent]

Thoroughly agree! Been there done that, got caught but I know the 'Klipsch Sound' so I am hoping I pick up something. I bought my '04 Khorns not knowing what I would experience with a different crossover than a 1976 pair I owned many years ago but I was pleasantly surprised.

Unfortunately I am closer to the South Pole than I am to Hope and it makes it difficult for me to experience the wonderful things that you guys are able too.

Cheers

[Coytee]

Cut-throat certainly makes some decent points.

I'd ask this as a follow up...

Did you hear your Khorns prior to buying them? (I'm presuming you did). If you had an inkling of selling your Khorns and Klipsch & Company, had a speaker out called "The Klipschorn II" would you feel comfortable buying it sight unseen?

Bob, Dean, Ralph, Chris, Henry and Bill all bought the Jubilees without hearing them. Perhaps some questions to them might help.

In my opinion, Cut-Throat makes one error... he's putting HIS value system on you. For all we know, you have a potential budget for this hobby, of $250,000 and live in a house with 20 foot ceilings... Or, you could certainly have a budget of $50 and live in a shack... point being... I don't see any reference to your 'financial reality' and I think it's a bit presumptious for someone (anyone) to presume what might be a financial mistake for them, would be a financial mistake for you (though it certainly COULD be....). For all we know, you could afford these and if you didn't like them, easily afford to put them on the street for a neighbor to pick up.

Virtuall all the Jubilee owners that I'm aware of have owned Heritage and of the 13 that I'm aware of, 8 have specifically owned and replaced their Khorns with the "Klipschorn Jubilee".

To get to your specific quesitons...for some very reasoned comments about their sound, read this thread http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/99200.aspx?PageIndex=1 Remember that Bill W and later on the first page, Cask05 both bought them 'blind' so their situation might be similar to yours, in that there was maybe some uncertainty.

As for corners... They don't "need" corners however as I understand it, they need to be within maybe 10" of a corner to get their full bass extension. Either way, they are MUCH more friendly than your Khorns are in that, with the enclosed back, you CAN pull them out and point them in a direction. Also, you can swing the horn on top around a bit if needed.

They won't intrude any more into the room (physically) than your Khorns do. Asthetically, they WILL be more noticable... ugly? intimidating? awesome? That might be in the eye of the beholder... I for one kind of like their looks although I'll admit it doesn't blend seamlessly with my wifes decor [:$]

You CAN get them in a finished wood... Klipsch can make them out of their standard wood (like Walnut) or, if they have access to something else, they can use it... it's all a function of money. Travis is ordering a pair now with (if memory serves me) African Mahogany.

You're aware of biamping & need for active...you can do the Dx38 like some have or use the Crown Xti amps like others and have good results with both. The Dx crossover will let you use any amp you choose (once you get past any potential RCA/XLR issues)

If you've got any more questions, much to the chagrin of some.... feel free to ask and we'll do all we can to answer.

[]

[Cut-Throat]

Let some other Aussie be the Guinea Pig! - Then drop over for a listen. Maybe someone in New Zealand has a pair. I'd like another excuse to go to New Zealand myself!

[mikebse2a3]

Hi All,

I'm thinking of selling my '04 Khorns and getting a pair of Jubs with an active network. I'm not sure what the stats are on the Jubs and most importanly what they sound like when compared against the Khorns. I do know how well the Khorns sound with a tractrix mid. I'm not technically minded and let my ears do the testing, can any one help with some info? Do they require corners?

Cheers

If you are seriously thinking about the Jubilee then I would suggest you PM or Email Roy with your questions.

Which stats are you interested in ? Many of the stats have been posted in various threads about the Jubilee.

The Jubilee will perform it's best with corner loading but noncorner operation is possible and again I would talk with Roy about this since I believe they are sometimes installed away from corners in theaters.

As a Klipschorn Jubilee owner and long time Klipschorn owner I'm very happy with my choice of the Jubilee and from what I've heard/read from owners who have had both they feel like it was well worth it to them. Again though audio is very much full of personel taste but if I had to choose between a Klipschorn Jubilee or Klipschorn strictly on sound and room integration alone I would feel safest recomending the Jubilee to someone.

I would PM or E-mail Jubilee owners and talk with them about their experiences and most have posted their thoughts on the sound of the Jubilee if you do a forum search.

mike tn[]

[Cut-Throat]

In my opinion, Cut-Throat makes one error... he's putting HIS value system on you. For all we know, you have a potential budget for this hobby, of $250,000 and live in a house with 20 foot ceilings... Or, you could certainly have a budget of $50 and live in a shack... point being... I don't see any reference to your 'financial reality' and I think it's a bit presumptious for someone (anyone) to presume what might be a financial mistake for them, would be a financial mistake for you (though it certainly COULD be....). For all we know, you could afford these and if you didn't like them, easily afford to put them on the street for a neighbor to pick up.

If you have to ask how Jubs compare to Klipshorn, then you can't afford the financial mistake. The guy that can afford the mistake would already have them on order[]

[mikebse2a3]

In my opinion, Cut-Throat makes one error... he's putting HIS value system on you. For all we know, you have a potential budget for this hobby, of $250,000 and live in a house with 20 foot ceilings... Or, you could certainly have a budget of $50 and live in a shack... point being... I don't see any reference to your 'financial reality' and I think it's a bit presumptious for someone (anyone) to presume what might be a financial mistake for them, would be a financial mistake for you (though it certainly COULD be....). For all we know, you could afford these and if you didn't like them, easily afford to put them on the street for a neighbor to pick up.

If you have to ask how Jubs compare to Klipshorn, then you can't afford the financial mistake. The guy that can afford the mistake would already have them on order

Hey Cut-Throat

I believe the Jubilees aren't for the faint of heart, many will and have bought on a leap of faith and many will have to go out of their comfort zone especially if they go the active route but for the one's that have so far I believe everyone is very happy they did and if not I hope they post why not.

I believe if someone has experienced many high quality speaker systems then hopefully they know and have confidence in what they want in sound reproduction. The Jubilee easily fits as one of the best speaker systems available today at any cost so if someone likes Klipschorns I would find it hard to believe that they wouldn't like the Jubilee since to me it takes the best that the Klipschorn has to offer and expands on that performance and if you could hear them together it is something I believe anyone would appreciate.

mike tn[]

[Coytee]

Let some other Aussie be the Guinea Pig! - Then drop over for a listen.

Rule #1 in Audio - Never, ever buy a speaker without listening to it first!

Rule #2 in Audio - When it is impossible to listen to the speaker you are considering buying, don't buy it.

Ask me how I know this and I'll tell you about my $3000 speaker 'audition'

I suspect the above illustrates how the buying process works for you and that's ok!! I still think it's a bit presumptious to apply your (or mine for that matter) buying process on someone else without any more tidbits than they've provided.

Just because he's not flipped say, 10K out of his pocket yet, doesn't mean he CAN'T do it without blinking (and it also doesn't mean he CAN) right? so like I said... I think it's a bit of an error to apply ones own buying process, budget, taste in asthetics, taste in sound to someone else when we have no evident clues as to what their reality is.

(btw, I used 10K just for reference, I've got NO idea what a pair of Jubilees might cost to Austraila)

[lakedmb]

I don't think that "Rule #2" is in fact a rule. I bought a pair of Cornwall II's off a guy without being able to listen to them for $400 and they have turned out to be amazing speakers. I did the same thing with a pair of La Scala's and Heresy's and so far have had amazing luck getting perfectly working speakers.

[consistent]

Thanks guys for your comments and help. I have emailed Roy and discussed a few things with him and also in discussion with the Aus Agent. No I haven't boundless lumps of cash and would use the cash from the sale of my Khorns. Both aren't cheap acquistions down here!

My reasons for a purchase (if I decide) is simply in pursuit of something better with them not necessarily corner compliant so I can point them more into a listening position. Don't care about the looks as my ears don't have eyes and my wife doesn't care (except for the changeover price). I am hoping that imagery is improved (front to back, side to side) and from what I hear their tone, texture and temper is improved. I listen to all types of music.

Thanks again.

[George Roland]

Interesting thread!

I agree with Cut-throat that listening before you buy speakers is a good idea. However, I am sure I am not the only audiophile who bought a pair of speakers I HAD listened to and became disenchanted with them over time. Listening, sometimes extensive listening, doesn't always equate with long term satisfaction. It just increases the odds. After all, your room, your electronics and your taste all have to fit correctly and auditions seldom reproduce those conditions.

Lately I have been buying speakers, used, that I have not heard. In the last several years, I have bought (and sold) Magnepan MG 1.6QRs and a pair of Klipschorns. My most recent acquisition, a pair of Thiel CS 3.6s are still under consideration. In each case, I was able to listen to my music in my space with my electronics over as long a period of time as I wanted. Of course, having a living room that looks like a audio dealer's showroom doesn't exactly make the wife jump for joy, especially when I had the Maggies, my PSB Stratus Golds and the K-horns in there all at once! I just turned 60. The kids are educated and out on their own. I am able to afford to do this, I enjoy it and I can generally recoup most of the cost of the speakers I'm trying out in resale.

If you come to the States, I'm sure someone here who has Jubs would host an audition. If it is cheaper to order the Jubs and have them delivered, and you have the income to do it, why not? If you like K-horns, like the Klipsch sound, and have read and conversed with the folks here who know both systems well, you're not going into it completely blind.

Good luck with your decision.

George

[Coytee]

I don't think anyone is saying that listening prior to purchase is a BAD idea...however... if we lived by that threshold (especially with Heritage and even more so, Jubilees) then Klipsch & company might just as well close shop cause it ain't gonna happen (via tradional methods at a corner dealer).

So, given the reality of how easy it is (not) to audition these things (and I'm including new Heritage as well), if one has heard the flavor and likes what he has heard in the past, then one might be best served to use some calculated education on new purchases.

He already owns a pair of Khorns so he has a clue as to the style of sound these might have. It's not a totally foreign situation to him.

So, I'd say, talk to Roy, talk to some of the owners, read that thread... make up your own mind. It sounds to me like you're a perfect candidate for something like this (cash outlay might be acceptable, already familiar with Khorns, asthetics not an issue, preference for sound....) Do your research and you will come to your own conclusion relative to your comfort zone.

You probably know which side of the fence I'm on as well as the other Jubilee owners....(trust me, the water is pretty durn good)

[consistent]

cheers...by the way I have owned Klipsch products on/off and numerous types (Heresy, LaScala, Cornwall, Fortes II now Khorns) since 1977...just keep on coming back to them! Wife thinks I'm nuts, rarely is she wrong!

[bhendrix]

Hi All,

I'm thinking of selling my '04 Khorns and getting a pair of Jubs with an active network. I'm not sure what the stats are on the Jubs and most importanly what they sound like when compared against the Khorns. I do know how well the Khorns sound with a tractrix mid. I'm not technically minded and let my ears do the testing, can any one help with some info? Do they require corners?

Cheers

Sent you email . . . .

[Chris A]

Hi All,

I'm thinking of selling my '04 Khorns and getting a pair of Jubs with an active network. I'm not sure what the stats are on the Jubs and most importanly what they sound like when compared against the Khorns. I do know how well the Khorns sound with a tractrix mid. I'm not technically minded and let my ears do the testing, can any one help with some info? Do they require corners?

Cheers

You asked a difficult question, i.e., "...what do they sound like when compared against the Khorns". I believe there are a couple of factors that will affect how different folks try to answer that question:

1) Your tastes (e.g., look at the thread on the "JubScala" and jwcullison's comments about what he is looking for in lf performance), and

2) Your room acoustics, including where you listen relative to the speaker placement in the room.

I own Khorn clones (reasonably good ones) that were in the corners of the room but were displaced when the Jubs hit the scene. For my room the Jubs' mf/hf performance was a dramatic improvement even though the Khorn is noted for its "live" presence. Understand, it's my ears and my room. The first thing everyone here noticed was the improved lf performance vis-a-vis Khorns.

I had issues with both the Khorns and the Jubs in terms of standing room modes which I mitigated by using corner bass traps. These helped my listening room a great deal in terms of smoothness of soundstage vs. listening position. I strongly recommend such devices with your Khorns if you don't already have these in your present listening room, along with ceiling diffusers at the first bounce position relative to your sweet-spot listening position. You may be satisfied with your Khorns a while longer if you add these--"my opinion only". Note that bass traps really do not affect low bass below ~80 Hz - that is a function of the room's architectural dimensions and wall/furnishing absorption. My rectangular listening room is 15.5(w)x9(h)x39.5(l) feet. I listen about 10 feet back from the speakers in the corners. This may be responsible for many of my opinions.

After I dialed in Roy's anechoic settings for the XTi's and Jubs, the mf/hf experience "came alive"--I don't know any other way I can express this. My wife showed up and bonded with the Jubs immediately after that (note: she has special constraints in hearing). This is essentially my "control" setup. I'm still enjoying that setup and have not varied it since before Christmas.

I would also recommend using Crown XTi's at least initially (update: I don't recommend Crown XTi's for anything other than PA systems...get yourself an active crossover like an EV Dx38, DC-one, etc.) since they are not terribly expensive and they have the benefit of Roy's anechoic EQ/delay/crossover settings. It is difficult to know if you've duplicated this performance using another set of amplifiers and separate active crossover, e.g., an EV Dx-38. Note that the XTi's have quiescent noise which is not a function of amplifier gain setting that is apparent at the horn mouths when no signal is present. I have gotten used to this but others may not. Once any music starts, I cannot hear this.

Corners: I haven't moved mine out of the corners since my room is tailor made for corner speakers. I would guess you'll take a 3-4 dB hit below about 50 Hz if you put them on a flat wall (update: You can use tapped horn subs or bass traps to fill the space behind and to the sides of the Jubs and the corners if you choose to move them out of the corners slightly in order to achieve a clear, uninterrupted space between the Jubs to improve imaging) - this is easily EQed out for most applications, and power isn't a problem since my XTi's are idling all the time, even when "hand volumes" are reached.

I hope this helps your decision making.

Chris

[wuzzzer]

I don't think that "Rule #2" is in fact a rule. I bought a pair of Cornwall II's off a guy without being able to listen to them for $400 and they have turned out to be amazing speakers. I did the same thing with a pair of La Scala's and Heresy's and so far have had amazing luck getting perfectly working speakers.

I would agree to some extent. I drove an hour to buy my Forte IIs for $275 and didn't listen to them until I got them home. Best $275 I've spent in my life!

Now, if I were spending several thousand dollars on speakers (such as Jubilees) I probably would like to listen to them beforehand. [8-|]

[Audio Flynn]

Let some other Aussie be the Guinea Pig! - Then drop over for a listen.

Rule #1 in Audio - Never, ever buy a speaker without listening to it first!

Rule #2 in Audio - When it is impossible to listen to the speaker you are considering buying, don't buy it.

Ask me how I know this and I'll tell you about my $3000 speaker 'audition'

I suspect the above illustrates how the buying process works for you and that's ok!! I still think it's a bit presumptious to apply your (or mine for that matter) buying process on someone else without any more tidbits than they've provided.

Just because he's not flipped say, 10K out of his pocket yet, doesn't mean he CAN'T do it without blinking (and it also doesn't mean he CAN) right? so like I said... I think it's a bit of an error to apply ones own buying process, budget, taste in asthetics, taste in sound to someone else when we have no evident clues as to what their reality is.

(btw, I used 10K just for reference, I've got NO idea what a pair of Jubilees might cost to Austraila)

I don't think that "Rule #2" is in fact a rule. I bought a pair of
Cornwall II's off a guy without being able to listen to them for $400
and they have turned out to be amazing speakers. I did the same thing
with a pair of La Scala's and Heresy's and so far have had amazing luck
getting perfectly working speakers.

Consider the source of the rule # 2.

If you do not take a chance on a component purchase without listening you are bound by geography to a restricted set of choices.

I did not need to hear my Belles before buying, I knew they would sound weak with the origaonl crossovers. Did not slow me down at all.

[Cut-Throat]

I've bought plenty of speakers under $1000, without listening to them, also. I'm not talking about relatively inexpensive purchases.I just bought a pair of Tekton design in the last 6 months which cost $500, I and never heard them. But, then I didn't agonize over them with requests of how they compared with other speakers to Tekton owners either. But when it comes to dropping 5 grand or 10 grand on speakers, (especially Big and Heavy speakers) I would get a plane ticket for an audition before I bought them. I wouldn't spend $50K on a car without a test drive either.

So my rules are for purchases for speakers that 'cost a lot' for your budget. - You decide - If Jubliees were $2000, I'd order a pair today, if they're $10,000 - I'm gonna hear them first!

So, let's not split too many hairs here! And you guys wonder why things never get through in Congress!

[DrWho]

Well I think consistent is big enough to know when he's comfortable making his own purchase! [] Sheesh.

For
what it's worth - I've never really liked the Khorn fully and there's
plenty of threads where I go on and on about some of my concerns. To
me, the Jubilee has been an answer to all of those concerns without
introducing new compromises

I think one of the most interesting tidbits from the
history of the Jub is that PWK was originally going to call it the
"Klipschorn II". After hearing them side by side, PWK felt it was one
higher than the Khorn and changed the name to "Klipschorn Jubilee".

It's
also interesting to note that the Jub outperforms in every aspect of
measurable performance. Your own ears are always the final answer, but
you can learn a lot about the sound of a speaker if you know how to
interpret the measurements. Some like to claim that measurements don't
correlate to what one actually hears - I just think those people are
misinterpreting the measurements. If you can find the article, read the
JAES publication about the Jubilee - it's been posted a few times, but
I can't seem to find it...

The biggest thing I wish the
Jubilee was better at is more low frequency extension. It effectively
digs as low as the Khorn, but I don't feel either dig low enough for
the type of music I listen to. I think some guys feel the same way,
which is why they have gone with an MWM instead of the Jub LF.
However, I wouldn't be willing to trade the mid bass performance of the
Jub LF for more boom in the low end...I think it makes more sense to go
3-way with a dedicated pair of stereo subwoofage to take over where the
Jub rolls off (~40Hz).

I think the biggest difference between the
Khorn and Jub is actually in the midrange though. The 2-way (especially
with time alignment) is much more cohesive and cleaner sounding. The
highs might be a bit strained, but nowhere near the K77. I know a
lot of guys have been going with the JBL 2404 baby cheek tweeters, but
I think the K402 outperforms in the sense that it doesn't splatter the
highs all over the room - I guess cohesive is the word that comes to
mind again. I was also extremely surprised that the Jubilee is even
more dynamic than the Khorn. I think what brings most horn lovers
together is the dynamics you get out of them and you get even more of
it from the Jub. To be honest, I wasn't expecting there to be much
difference...

Btw, I think the tractrix squawkers are an improvement over the
stock K401, but the modified tractrix of the K402 is better than the
straight up tractrix horns (like the trachorn or any of the other
tractrix horns Klipsch has put out).