Church Fellowship Hall sound project

[Daddy Dee]

David.

Interesting. Sure, I'd like to see a pic of what you guys are doing.

[longdrive03]

Hi Tony. I have four of them now but a friend is going to buy a couple to go with the two he's already bought. I'm helping him with a "Super Heresy" which I've posted on in this forum. Double 12" woofers, horn mid, K-79-K tweeter. I have two left and you're welcom to them if Daddy Dee and you don't need them for your project. You can email me to discuss. Thanks.

[bhendrix]

Hey longdrive,

Do you still have any of those KP-65 drivers? I may get a couple of those for back-up for the speakers at camp.

Thanks,

Bill

[JohnA]

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mackie-DFX12-12x2-Mixer-with-Effects?sku=634264

These are VERY nice mixers. We have one mounted in a rack on wheels for use behind the puppet stage used in wee worship. It and a 45 wpc stereo power amp drive a pair of HIPs.

[Marvel]

John, I promise I'll get your crossovers back to you... You working this week?

Bruce

[Daddy Dee]

John,

Thanks for the rec on the mixer.

What are the HIP's?

[DrWho]

HIP = Heresy Industrial Ported

[Daddy Dee]

oh that HIP. Thanks.

Here's the room dimensions:

L 65'

W 35'

H 11' or 12'

The stage is one one end of the room 14' deep, such that there are 51' feet from the front of the stage to the back of the room.

Stage height 18" illustration NOT to scale

[dkp]

Projector on top, DVD/VHS players one shelf below and karaoke machine on the bottom.

[Daddy Dee]

David,

Nice setup.

[Daddy Dee]

possible speaker configurations to be used as a single main

-- to use twin 8" or 10" or 12" woofer

-- to employ a Heresy mid and tweeter

--or--

-- to employ a single driver for HF such as K-65 or (CT125 with the appropriate woofer)

-- ported as appropriate

example of cabinet dimensions if employing the Eminence Beta 10" woofer (recommended cab volume of 1.3 cu ft to 2.2 cu ft. ported for one driver)

for twin 10" woofers approximate cab dimensions of 12" H 18" D 36" L would yield an interior volume within the upper end of this range.

any thoughts, corrections or recommendations appreciated.

any up side or down side to this configuration? latest thinking has been to do enough LF in the main to avoid using a sub in this first config.

[Daddy Dee]

Eminence Beta woofer options

note that the 10" coax specs have the lowest low end at 40hz

http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=B-Beta-225W-350W

one question: it would seem that the easiest crossover solution would be to use Heresy speaker elements and a type E crossover. Assuming that modification would be needed for twin woofers.

another question: if building a two way as mentioned above, what would the crossover need to look like?

[Daddy Dee]

http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=05-072&Category_Code=II+Horns

Eminence H-290 Horn 11.4" x 6.5" - 1" Throat

if using the KP65 mf/hf would this be an appropriate horn?

I'm not recalling the horn Klipsch uses to employ this driver, but this of course would also be a strong consideration.

[DrWho]

For starters, you want to begin by determining the coverage pattern
you need. Ideally you would do this with a program like EASE, but i
went ahead and cranked through some numbers for you....

Assming
the speaker cluster is centered directly above the front of the stage
and the average listener height is 3 feet, you need a 48 degree
horizontal polar with the bottom edge of the array polars rotated
forward by 36 degrees (assuming the front row is about 6' back from the
stage). In the middle of the room (where horizontal polars would need
to be the widest), you need 68 degrees in the horizontal. In the back
of the room you need 37 degrees in the horizontal with the top edge of
the array polars rotated by 81 degrees. So your total vertical coverage
angles comes to 81-36 = 45 degrees. Your average horizontal polars is
(48+68+37)/3 = 51 degrees.

This is a really rough calculation, but the point is that you need about a 50x50 coverage pattern.

In the worst case scenario, you would want your horizontal polars to be slightly wider
than your vertical polars (so maybe something like 70x40 would be
acceptable). I bring this up because putting the woofers in a
horizontal array like you propose will cause the horizontal polars to
become narrower than the vertical polars.

Your HF driver
is going to lose its pattern control as you go lower in frequency
(essentially becomming almost omnidirectional at the crossover
frequency). If you put a woofer above the HF driver, you will
be able to narrow the vertical polars a bit in the crossover region
without affecting the horizontal polars. Once you get below the
crossover region, you will shift to the directivity of the woofer,
which will be the same in the vertical and the horizontal. This will
gradually get wider as you go lower in frequency until it is
omnidirectional (which will be influenced somewhat by the size of the
baffle it is mounted to).

If you wanted to control the polars
further below the crossover frequency, then you could add another driver to
the system. But instead of putting the drivers to the sides of the HF
driver, you would need to put one driver above the HF driver and the
other driver below the HF driver (so a vertical array). You would want
an inter-driver spacing of about 2 feet for this, which I think in your
application is totally unnacceptable considering the sight lines.

All that to say, the current proposal for a dual driver horizontal
array is about as non-ideal as you can get considering the design
contraints.

If you are unable to get the woofer and tweeter into
a vertical configuration, then I would suggest experimenting with an
alignment like this:

http://www.eaw.com/products/AX344.html

http://www.eaw.com/info/EAW/Loudspeaker_Product_Info/Current_Loudspeakers/AX344/AX344_SPECS_revB.pdf

This
type of configuration is a lot more complicated, which means it is a
lot harder to model - which means you will really need a way to measure
the final repsonse of the system and make tweaks as necessary.

If you want to keep things simple and can't go vertical, then I
would suggest a 50x50 HF horn with a single 12" driver mounted directly
to the side.

One of these drivers should be adequate for your installation:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-416&ctab=2#Tabs

In the back of the room with 200W you'll be looking at a clean max
continuous SPL of 94dB, which I would hope is plenty loud enough. In
the front of the room that would be a max of 112dB. Eminence has some
plans for the cab volumes and all that too:

http://www.eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_detail.asp?web_detail_link=DELTA-12LFA&speaker_size=12&SUB_CAT_ID=2

A single K-22 or K-24 from an old Heresy would work real well too -
in fact, it'd prob work better than the above driver. Just put it in a
slightly larger ported enclosure (which you should have plenty of room
to do since the cabinet depth really isn't a limiting factor).

An Fc of about 45Hz would be an adequate goal considering the
application - definitely not higher if you want to avoid using
subwoofers.

And while I'm at it, here's a cool driver+horn combination I came across that I think would work ok in your application:

DE10 driver:
http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=4&id_descrizione=46&prodotto=64

ME10 horn:

http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=5&id_descrizione=47&prodotto=87

Or a bit better would be the DE12 driver:

http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=4&id_descrizione=46&prodotto=65

mated to the ME45 horn:

http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=5&id_descrizione=47&prodotto=89

You can find all these drivers and horns over at US Speaker:

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

Hope this helps...

[Daddy Dee]

Mike,

Thanks for your work here. I'm sure it will take a while for me to digest all of this, but I am working on it.

One thing, if I am understanding this correctly, it would be an improvement over what I have drawn if I were to hang a Heresy upside down, so the woofer is above the HF?

Also, it would be an improvement over what I've drawn if I were to use a single woofer in the cab and have the HF to one side? That might look like a Heresy on it's side with the mid and tweeter rotated so they were still in the horizontal plane?

Would an array of two Heresy cabs work as a center cluster?

Thanks for the PA audio for idiots help.

[garyrc]

I assume you've seen the old PWK ad of the '70s "A Little Heresy in the Church."

It shows a single Heresy perched far above the altar in a large church.

IMO, though, if any full voiced person is going to sing through your fellowship hall system, you'll need more than a single Heresy, so custom making something as you're doing -- or installing something like a La Scala II, may be the ticket. Perhaps a Heresy would give a soloist enough clean SPL to balance a room full of our squeaky Presbyterians up here, but you are in the South ....

[bhendrix]

Hey Dee,

Here's a pair of KP-3002 in Austin for $375. Travis could go check them out and pick them up for you. We use these a church camp and they are terrific speakers. KP48 woofer in ported cabinet with the 604 tractrix horn and the Eminence KP-65 hf driver. These could be flown or used as portable. These are like two-way Chorus I's. Not affiliated with seller, yada, yada, yada . . . .

http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/570753779.html

[DrWho]

One thing, if I am understanding this correctly, it would be an improvement over what I have drawn if I were to hang a Heresy upside down, so the woofer is above the HF?

Yes

Also, it would be an improvement over what I've drawn if I were to use a single woofer in the cab and have the HF to one side? That might look like a Heresy on it's side with the mid and tweeter rotated so they were still in the horizontal plane?

This would be good, but not as good as a Heresy upside down

Would an array of two Heresy cabs work as a center cluster?

A single Heresy cab would work better.

[DrWho]

Here's a pair of KP-3002 in Austin for $375. Travis could go check them out and pick them up for you. We use these a church camp and they are terrific speakers. KP48 woofer in ported cabinet with the 604 tractrix horn and the Eminence KP-65 hf driver. These could be flown or used as portable. These are like two-way Chorus I's. Not affiliated with seller, yada, yada, yada . . . .

http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/570753779.html

Now we're talking [Y]

A KP-3002 would smoke a Heresy in your application - it'll be a bit larger, but I think if height was an issue that you could rotate it on its side and rotate the HF horn.

$375 for a pair is major steal too. [] I would definitely jump on this.

Btw, running just one 3002 is gonna sound better than running the pair....so you can use the extra one for a monitor or something else. A portable mono sound system wouldn't be too shabby either (I dunno why people shy away from mono so much either....)

[Daddy Dee]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the thoughts here. This is genuinely helpful for the project.