Mike Lindsey Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I have heard nothing but great things about Dean and Bob, and I am sure I will be doing business with them in the future on future projects. Having said that, I cannot speak highly enough about the ALK Universals I have on my La Scala's. These are not cheap (I think around $550/pr) but they are the cat's meow. They really opened up my speakers, and it was a very noticeable difference. Even more so since adding the 511B's and BEC tweeters. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these guys, and they are all on the up-and-up, but I only have experience with the ALKs. Let us know what you end up doing... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nat Denkin Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The ALK Universal is available as a kit for a mere $290. It uses several less expensive capacitors than the wired and tested version, but is a great choice for the budget minded. The improvement in my system is INCREDIBLE. It is a work of art for both the eyes and ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesboy Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The ALK Universal is available as a kit for a mere $290. It uses several less expensive capacitors than the wired and tested version, but is a great choice for the budget minded. The improvement in my system is INCREDIBLE. It is a work of art for both the eyes and ears. Ditto that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I'll see your ditto and raise you one. I am using Al's kit built by bluesboy. They are a thing of beauty. Have also used Bob's xovers and that pretty Arkansas cedar they are mounted on. Welcome to the forum Nat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 The ALK Universal is available as a kit for a mere $290. It uses several less expensive capacitors than the wired and tested version, but is a great choice for the budget minded. The improvement in my system is INCREDIBLE. It is a work of art for both the eyes and ears. Is that for a pair or for one. One Klipschorn is sort of like one shoe... I have both legs. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nat Denkin Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 That's for the pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 Doesn't seem unreasonable. How are the instructions? I am a bit past puzzleing things out. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nat Denkin Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 While the instructions are a little confusing at times, the photos are clear how everything is connected. The instructions are very detailed so that the crossovers are exactly the same for the two channels. The results are worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Just a thought that Bob and myself have shared several times together; Someone goes from an old set of networks to the ALK and are blown away. However, people that go from an old set of networks to a new set of Klipsch type replacements are equally blown away. It isn't everyday that someone goes from a new set of Klipsch type replacements to the ALK Universal (people tend to stay put once they've updated/upgraded their networks). Now, some like to climb the ladder, and so there are certainly many who have done it-- but after doing this network thing for quite a while -- I can tell you that not everyone prefers the ALKs after they do a head to head with a good set of Klipsch rebuilds. Count me as one of those. What people mostly like about the ALK is that they can adjust the midrange level. What I find interesting here is that the great majority of owners use the 4 and X setting, which basically drops the squawker output by another 3dB (probably more) from the normal -3dB of attenuation with the A or AA. Combined with the hotter tweeter section you get the "What a difference! There's more bass and the highs are so airy!" Yeah, well -- midrange suckout and an elevated tweeter output will cause that. Hey, people like that, I'm perfectly fine with it -- but don't tell me how you're "living in the midrange". Finally, if you put the settings to 4 and 0, you'll be surprised to find a network that sounds very much like the Type AA. Now, and for the record -- I like the ALK, I just don't like it as much as the Type A in my room, with my gear, and with my listening habits. "Return to factory spec". That would mean using lossy oil filled capacitors, and the guy that used to do that doesn't do it anymore because people weren't real excited about the pricing. Different caps sound different to me. Everytime I've convinced myself that it's all in my head, I get another wake up call. My opinion here is that unless the networks are rebuilt with exactly the same type capacitors that Klipsch used -- you ain't hearing what "Mr. Paul" heard. No, the difference in magnitude isn't like an amp changeout or the like -- but it's there. To be "factory spec" also means you should use the right driver with the right network. If you're running an A or AA with the K-55-M, you are not "factory spec", and I don't care how "factory spec" your network is. If your networks were built in the 70's and you haven't done anything with them yet, the caps are probably leaking oil. It's usually under the caps where you can't see it. If they aren't, they soon will be. Some of those caps were left over from WWII and were 20 years old before they found their way onto a network. Caps on networks from the 80's are probably near as bad -- not from dielectric breakdown due to age, but from excessive heat from soldering on that 10AWG Monster cable. If you're tight on money, try to scrape together the $100 or so and send them to Bob to be recapped. If you can afford the $285 for his new AA's, then do that. The autoformer is an important part, and the old T2A's I've handled have seen better days -- I don't think it's good when the windings are so loose that they can be pushed up and down the core. $80 more gets you a build with the parts carefully laid out, the least amount of wiring and connections, a steel laminate inductor for the low pass, Jantzen air cores, 14AWG buss wire for all the common connections, a terminal strip that affords the highest degree of positive contact with a screw that I've seen, and caps that probably cost more than they should but sound the best to me. I don't use the zeners in my AA's. Zeners are for crappy amps and/or people who don't know what clipping or overdriven speakers sound like. The best tweeter protection is the volume control. Everyone who does business with me knows how to use one. The best passive network I've ever heard is the Type A with VH Audio V-caps. I'm pretty sure the 'V' stands for "Voodoo". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Thanks for the clear post Dean. I most certainly agree with the tweeter protection comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 >Combined with the hotter tweeter section you get the "What a difference! There's more bass and the highs are so airy!" Yeah, well -- midrange suckout and an elevated tweeter output will cause that. Hey, people like that, I'm perfectly fine with it -- but don't tell me how you're "living in the midrange". This part I fully understand. Frankly, these speakers sound better than anything I am generally exposed to now. I just would like to get them back to what PWK's specs. If money is an issue to that end, I'll live with outstanding until I can afford transcendental. Hopefully, that will not be long. I suppose I am still a bit lost on the best, most cost effective, and true to PWK solution. At this point, I realize that everyone on the forum probably has a different take on just what that means. I need to noodle on it to figure out the best firing solution for Dave. Dean, I really appreciate your input and its in the best tradition of the forum. Regards, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Dave-- If at all possible, try to hear these before buying or being committed to them. The range of sonics with these networks is really extremely wide. No doubt. Incidently, you're one of the guys that had an opportunity to do a head on comparison of two, new pairs of networks; an ever so slightly modified Type AA, and the same constant impedance DHA that Bruce (Marvel) uses. I got the impression that there was very little that you liked about the latter. Networks are like everything else in this hobby; one guy's "cats meow" leaves the other guy bored to tears or looking for an exuse to get out of the room. Dave, I've sent Bob a lot of business over the years for various reasons -- budgetary constraints is one of them. I also send people to him if I've got a half-dozen things sitting on my bench and can't really take on anymore work. Bob sends me the Reference guys. I send Al the guys looking for cost no object designs -- and Al sends me the guys looking for upscale Klipsch rebuilds. None of us are scraping pennies, "fighting for business", backbiting to get "someone else's work", or likely to fall into depression if someone we've been trading email with decides to go with someone else (annoying as it is:). Now, if someone asks me straight out -- I tell them that I consider Bob my friend, but he only hears what the measurements tell him, and that he's half deaf. I'm pretty sure he tells people that I'm hearing things, that my parts don't sound any better than his, and that I spend too much time on a build that's going to be stuck behind a speaker and never seen again. You really can't do this kind of thing unless you stay true to what you think about things. Each of us knows where the other stands on the various issues, and we basically just agree to disagree. In spite of the differences and the friendly rivalry, we get along pretty good. The point of all this is that no one on this forum needs to stress over offending us by their choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 Dave-- If at all possible, try to hear these before buying or being committed to them. The range of sonics with these networks is really extremely wide. Therein lays the rub... What I want is not warm sound, rich sound, full sound, etc, but accurate sound. It is obvious that some of these are not accurate or they would not "sound" like anything. The problem is metaphysical rather than scientific even when getting recommendations from the talented and experienced bunch here. How can I know what YOU hear? Further, the likelyhood of being able to hear any of these prior to purchase is not great. That is why I am looking to return to stock. If I could audition each of these on my 'horns with my recordings, it would be easy. I know the difference between what I recorded and what the system is doing. As Pogo said years ago "You pays your dollar and takes your choice." Regards,Dave Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Dean said: "Each of us knows where the other stands on the various issues, and we basically just agree to disagree. In spite of the differences and the friendly rivalry, we get along pretty good." Rats!! Now you tell me. I thought you conceded and that I had won. Now I have to start over with you. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 The ALK Universal is available as a kit for a mere $290. It uses several less expensive capacitors than the wired and tested version, but is a great choice for the budget minded. The improvement in my system is INCREDIBLE. It is a work of art for both the eyes and ears. congrats on plotting a course and sailing it. the universals are a great xover system and have upgrade paths associated with adding other ALK products if the itch ever returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 To me, "accurate" has one definition. When I play a recording I made myself, I expect to hear as close to what my ears heard when I was there as possible. Anything less or more is "not accurate." Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 To keep cost down further still, you can also eliminate the autoformer entirely, and replace it with a series/parallel resistor combination. The idea that this approach over the autoformer will not sound as good is very misleading in my experience. I choose what sounds best to me, not someone else; and I'm in the position to use either the impedance alterations imposed by the autoformer or more simple and far less expensive resistors. It seems the last I saw, resistors now replace the autoformer in the new Heritage line. What you are looking for is an approach to attenuation, and that can be achieved in different ways. I also saw a schematic for a passive Jubilee network, which used a single series resistor. You might also consider one of Bob's replacement tweeters, which I think are a very good improvement (subjective, obviously) over the original. Crossed over at 4.5kHz, or in the case of the new network I built with my own coils, 4kHz with an 18dB/octave filter on the tweeter connected directly to the amp input.a Oil capacitors are NOT inherently leaky, either. The very old ones that were used might be. The 'A' is great for the money, particularly with lower powered amp designs. Al K. also sells wonderfully built networks, and some people really like them. Others have replaced them with the extremely simple 'A.' You can replace the capacitors yourself with the network you have, since the coils and multi-tapped choke don't really age, per se'. Have fun Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 Good to hear from you, Erik. BTW, notice I am in Seabrook now. Perhaps we can get together sometime?My understanding was that the autotransformers did not go south anyway and did not need to be replaced. Assuming they are just multi-tapped coils like other autotransformers, that would make sense.Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmi Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Dave, I'm in the same boat possibly that you are in. Having just bought a pair of 79 Khorns that are raggety at best, I'm also looking to upgrade my crossovers. I have contacted the Gods (DeanG, BEC, ALK,) and am weighing my options. My problem is I don't have any experience listening to anything but original crossovers, and old ones at that. I hope you will shed some light to the inexperienced like me on what you decide to go with and why. I have my Khorns torn apart and am ready to make 60th anniversary clones out of them. I want to upgrade my crossovers before I put them back together. Sorry for rambling--dipping into my homemade wine again! -kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 Best not wait on me...it may take some time to consider options. However, put the paddles to this thread anytime you come up with something worth considering, and I will do the same. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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