Who here uses a pro amp to drive his speakers ?

[TheEAR]

Tube amps have not so great control in the low registers,all those I have heard...when matched with speakers that are not efficient and power hungry. This is forgiven as tubes are are often matched with efficient speakers.

[CECAA850]

I hate to bring this thread back to topic, but I use pro amps with my Reference speakers.[:$]

[Don Richard]

SWL:

Thanks Don. When I use my XTI as an ordinary 2 channel amp.........I'm not the least bit interested in it. When bi-amping using the DSP features I enjoy the results very much.

In fact.......isn't this how these amps are really intended to be used?

There are quite a few folks who do not care for the sound of this amp when used full range for 2 channel use. Too many folks who appear to know good sound when they hear it to simply ignore. However, when polyamplification is employed one is severely restricting the bandwidth per amplifier to a value less than 20hz-20khz. Perhaps the division by the crossover of the input signal into narrower slices of the frequency spectrum masks some deficiencies that are more readily apparent during full bandwidth use.

Like you, I bought these amps to use in a polyamplified system and to use the onboard DSP for time alignment purposes. In that role these amps work really, really well.

Don

Honk if you love Horns

[TheEAR]

I hate to bring this very old thread back so...

I will love my soon to be home Pass Labs X350 even more than my current amps. HA HA [] Take that budget ...X350 ...a Nelson Pass product. []

[Guest srobak]

I hate to bring this thread back to topic, but I use pro amps with my Reference speakers.

Like what? Please specify What else have you tried?

[CECAA850]

As far as amplification goes, non "pro amp" I've used a Kenwood receiver, Harman Kardon receiver and a Carver amp and tuner seperates. Pro-amps, Crown XTI's and QSC PLX2's.

[PrestonTom]

".....

I will love my soon to be home Pass Labs X350 even more than my current amps. HA HA Take that budget ...X350 ...a Nelson Pass product.

......"

When your Pass X amp arrives, I would very interested in your thoughts & comments. Perhaps in a fresh thread where we can focus the discussion.

-Tom

[TheEAR]

I am debating Pass Labs X350 or SimAudio MOON W8 ...I will listen to these and decide...and let the PLACEBO TM decide of the outcome. []

Both are built to a standard that is beyond the mortal realm ,the Pass is more purist,the SimAudio not too far behind and it can drive any ane and insane load one would dare try.

I like quality pro amps but they will NEVER replace a high end power amp for me.

[CECAA850]

At $9000.00 for 2 channels of amplification, I'm afraid I'll have to "Pass".

[Jeff Matthews]

I guess it's "to each his own" when balancing cost vs. quality. Personally, I would think a nice Toyota is sufficiently comparable to a Lexus to such a degree that I would definitely buy the nice Toyota for 60-70% the cost of the Lexus. But I am sure Lexus people would extoll the virtues of the Lexuas and how it is totally "worth it."

[Don Richard]

I'm still befuddled about what there is to "like" about pro amps in the home audio setting? I wish someone would define the virtues other than their obvious low cost. Low cost I get. And then what?

Pro sound, especially products designed for live sound reinforcement, possess the following qualities:

1) Power and high output current capability.

2) Tough and rugged.

3) High quality performance well within the range of human hearing.

4) High efficiency, low AC power consumption.

5) Near total immunity to microphonics.

6) Balanced interconnects for greater immunity to noise pickup.

7) Maintenance free operation.

8) Superb protection from shorts, surge and transients, DC faults.

9) Clipping protection.

10) Bandpass limiting to protect from subsonic and ultrasonic damage to loudspeaker components

11) Universal connectivity with other professional grade components.

I'm tired of typing, time for lunch. Let me know if you need more reasons.

Don

Honk if you love Horns

[Ricci]

IMOP

Power, ruggedness, I would argue better product support, sometimes additional features(DSP, Filters, etc.)... Things not normally found in the average home amp... Mostly just the first 2 in addition to cost.

The downsides are usually cosmetics and fan noise. Sometimes also less than squeeky clean sound, this is not always or even generally the case though.

Aargh! Don beat me to it!

[CECAA850]

So then according to mdeneen, one downside to a pro amp is fan noise. Easily corrected with a resistor or fan replacement. Another downside is sound quality, which is subjective according to you (and I agree). And basically everything else is very close to a wash. I came to the same conclusions as you did. It's almost like we're agreeing[] Now we get to the nuts and bolts of it. I have 7 channels of amplification with 325 watts/channell @8Ohms for roughly 1800.00 and change. To some people without unlimited resources such as myself, it's an attractive option. I may go with a "home" style amp in the future but I would venture to guess that I'll be paying substantially more than what I have in amplification costs currently. The whole groundswell of support for pro style amps (in the home) is based on affordability. At least that's my opinion of it. I'm not saying they're better than what's available to the "audiophile" but for the price, they're not that much worse (if at all).

[Don Richard]

Not much there Don. Better get busy after lunch!

There you go again.

Home audio gear is is much more delicate than SR gear. There is a thread going on about earthquakes here. The chances of a piece of vacuum tube gear that was shaken off of a shelf still working won't be good. Maintenance? Vacuum tubes require periodic re-biasing and replacement. Power output? LOL. Entry level pro amps' power output starts where home units ends. 1400 watts @4ohms is available from the XTI. Need more? QSC RMX5050 - 5000 watts. At low distortion. Universal compatibility? Input and output impedances of home gear isn't standardized. Hooking a preamp with a high output impedance to an amplifier necessitates careful matching to an amplifier for high quality results. BTW, be extremely careful when hooking up Audio Research preamps to Krell amps. These are highly respected components, however, they both go down to DC in frequency response. When you turn them on the Krell will amplify the DC offset from the preamp and fry your speakers. On newer Krell amps there is now an input with a blocking cap. Be sure this is the input you are using.

9) Clipping protection.

Same as audio amps where offered. McIntosh has been doing this for 40 years.

Where offered? Mostly, its not offered. Any of yours have this feature?

Don

Honk if you love Horns

[CECAA850]

CCeacaa--

Close

The way in which a 75-cent/watt amp is designed will yield inferior performance in every possible category to a $10/watt "audio" amplifier. There's simply no free lunches involved!

I would think that a 225.00 amp would have inferior performance to a 3000.00 amp. That's an extreme price difference. On the other hand I don't think 3000.00 dollars worth of home amps would be twice as good as 1500.00 dollars worth of pro amps. I also do not wish to imply that I think that the amps I use are the best amps available anywhere at any price. That's not my point at all. I'm of the opinion that of all things considered (amps, pre/pro, room, speakers) that amps have the least effect on what you hear. I concentrated my monies elsewhere.

[Don Richard]

There's simply no free lunches involved!

But there are very expensive lunches out there that don't taste good.

Don

Honk if you love Horns

[Jeff Matthews]

There's simply no free lunches involved!

But there are very expensive lunches out there that don't taste good.

Don

Honk if you love Horns

... and Vodka, too.

[SWL]

CCeacaa--

Close

The way in which a 75-cent/watt amp is designed will yield inferior performance in every possible category to a $10/watt "audio" amplifier. There's simply no free lunches involved!

I would think that a 225.00 amp would have inferior performance to a 3000.00 amp. That's an extreme price difference. On the other hand I don't think 3000.00 dollars worth of home amps would be twice as good as 1500.00 dollars worth of pro amps. I also do not wish to imply that I think that the amps I use are the best amps available anywhere at any price. That's not my point at all. I'm of the opinion that of all things considered (amps, pre/pro, room, speakers) that amps have the least effect on what you hear. I concentrated my monies elsewhere.

I also distributed my hard earned money in the following fashion:

#1 Speakers............Klipsch, of course.

#2 Preamp..............JM Peach, Marantz, Denon

#3 Subs..................Klipsch and SVS

#4 Power amps......Crown pro-amps........more than enough power, not quite as good as the glorified consumer amps but having the least effect on what you actually hear........they're darn close and to me the cost justifies that.

#5 CD, DVD players.........Denon, Jolida

[Erik Mandaville]

"I'm still befuddled about what there is to "like" about pro amps in the home audio setting?"

Why befuddled? What are you basing the judgement on, Mark? Some people have heard them and find them suitable. That's good enough for me. If they are not suitable for YOUR home audio setting, drive on. It's no different than the Paleolithic SET/PP debate. People have asked me very similar questions regarding our La Scalas and Klipschorns -- or....what is it you enjoy the sound of.....Belles, aren't they? "Horn speakers like that will rip your ears off!" "No," I reply back. "They rip your ears off."

People have bought them and liked what they do for the cost. People use the same structures in the process of hearing, as do people also chomp T-bone steaks or creamed spinach (YUK) with the same 'chewing, and swallowing anatomy'. Doesn't mean they all like to eat the same thing.....and so on and so forth, etc., etc., etc.

This isn't to say PCATs and other tube amps aren't equally likeable (obvious enough). I wish I had the piggy bank to afford a pair of your amps. I'd be interested in a schematic if you ever decided to make them available, though.

Erik

PS: What is a HIGH END audio amp? I admit the term is impressive sounding enough, but what exactly does that mean? I know that cost figures into the equation simply by virtue of the title. Add the term 'Audiophile Grade' onto anything and the price is jacked up 500 fold. I have a $75.00 amplifier that sounds as good or better than ANY significantly more expensive tube amplifier I own. That doesn't make it my favorite amplifier, because there are other associations about the components I have that are important to me -- the people that were involved with the fact that I own them. On sonic merits alone, the TEAC is a superb amp at 30watts X 3. Cheap, light weight, easy to not to worry about.

[Erik Mandaville]

Interstage impedance matching is always an issue, whether 'home (approved) audio' or pro. That goes, as mentioned above, between preamps and amps, or within stages of components, themselves. I can attest to the attention Mark has given to this in his preamps; the amplifiers I have no experience with, but I'm sure the same is true.

My argument has to do with something else concerning individual preference for these machines.

Erik